Response – March 1

Like William said, I felt extremely appreciative and grateful for everything I have while reading these chapters.  Some sort of plumbing system was a rare gift to the people living in these tenements described in the Five Points and Brownsville.  There is so much that I take for granted–that most of us take for granted–so naturally, these readings did not sit with me all too well.

What really made me happy though, was the fact that, as a few posts have mentioned, the poorest of the poor were still able to have a good time.  They still went to night clubs and mingled with one another, even if only brought together by the fact that they were in such similar, awful situations.  But isn’t that what draws us to one another?  People are naturally drawn to others who are like them, who can sympathize with them.  As appalling as it was to read of the tours the upper class people went on of Five Points, I’m sure that it was extremely hard for them to relate to the poor slum residents.  I do agree that they should have done something to help, but at the same time, I could point that finger right back at myself.  How often do I see a homeless person on the street, begging for a few dollars, and think to myself, “Wow, I feel sorry for them but it was partly their own fault…”?  It is hard to understand those who are so different than us, as I’m sure it was for the upper class when they went “slumming”.

Now this by no means gave the more fortunate an excuse to disregard the poor, because they were clearly living in horrid, inhumane conditions, but it does give me a tiny bit more understanding of the middle-upper class mentality.

As for the socialism vs. capitalism issue, I agree with Liz.

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Response

Since we’re having a little capitalist vs. communism debate here, I’d like to say that I agree with Elizabeth–that neither system is perfect.  It’s true that if the United States had been a Communist society, Five Points would not be in such a bad state, possibly because it would be non-existent.  Because, if you think about it, the degeneration of Five Points was, in part, caused by the huge number of immigrants that gathered there in a relatively short amount of time.  And why did these immigrants gather there?  They were there to improve their lives.  In a uniform society, like the one that Communism creates, there is no chance of advancement, hence no reason for immigrants to gather.  On the other hand, the capitalist system has a lot to do with the deterioration of Five Points.  Sigh.  This debate could continue for the rest of eternity and we’d still have no answer.

I totally agree with Elizabeth on how hard-hearted people must be to prefer to go slumming rather than help the people out and also with Rebecca on how Five Points was a profitable.  I may or may not have checked out the last chapter “The End of Five Points” in which it talks about the renovation of Five Points, mentioning a newspaper that stated that Five Points grew amazingly boring after it became a place actually worth living in.  I also remembered that scene in Slum dog Millionaire in which Jamal (was that his name?) was pointing out the buffaloes to the amazed tourists.

Praveena mentioned how it irked her how everyone was able to use Five Points to justify their personal beliefs.  I found it kind of funny.  But then I have a bizarre sense of humor.  But honestly, that’s the beauty of a symbol.  It can be used to represent almost anything.  Five Points is a symbol of all that is New York, whether it be anti-slavery or evils of capitalism.

About what Liz said–all humans being naturally greedy–that’s a little harsh, don’t you think?  There are all sorts of sides and facets to human nature–to generalize humanity is an injustice.

I remember thinking about Oliver Twist while reading, and I was pleasantly surprised when Charles Dickens was mentioned.  Though I’m not a fan of Oliver Twist, I liked all his other novels.  I thought it was kind of funny how Dickens exaggerated the conditions of Five Points to get his little revenge on the United States.  It just goes to show that Five Points can really be used to for anything.

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Response No. 4

So, I’m sitting here watching the Oscars, and I think to myself, “Gee, the richer always seem to get richer as the poorer get poorer, huh?” Seeing Anne Hathaway and James Franco all dolled up severely conflicted with the images of rags limply hanging off emaciated bodies I had lingering in my imagination after reading. But anyway –

I agree with Liz about Foner’s point about romanticization. It is extremely difficult to determine the validity of historic accounts when fact and opinionated-select memories intertwine. We experience this ourselves; when retelling a story that had emotional significance to us, how many times do we stretch fact and exaggerate the truth? This warping can be done to positive and negative memories alike; hence, the romanticization of Old World neighborhoods and the ignorance of Five Point’s benefits happen.

Anbinder’s descriptions were extremely vivid and grotesque. The explanations of freezing winters, sweltering summers, nauseating odors, poor sanitation, wimpy shelters, rampant diseases, overcrowded residential spaces, high rents, and unrelenting noises are incredible… in a bad way. That being said, I enjoyed reading his excerpts more than those of Foner and Pritchett. I guess my morbid curiosity would be naturally attracted to the idea of “slumming.” While reading that specific passage, I thought immediately of reality television, like Rebecca. It’s true – humans are naturally curious when it comes to the misfortunes of others, because it makes us realize, “it could’ve happened to us!”

Lydia Maria Child’s words from her work Letters from New York still resonate with me now: “Will the millennium ever come!” Well, it certainly did. And we have most deifnitely come a long way since the horrid conditions in the 19th-20th centuries; subways continue to make economic expansion possible, and toleration for those of foreign lands continues to grow as colors further mix together. Pritchett stated that “Brownsville’s second-generation did better than their parents, but only by a little” (32). Although this may be true, I think that even the slightest improvements meant the world to New York residents then. It proved that development was possible, and success would eventually come.

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Response #4 (for 3/1/11)

Oh goodness, the sparks both react so strongly to the conditions of the tenement life depicted in Anbinder, that I have actually forgotten what strong feelings I was gonna post about. Honestly though, I feel horrible for not having that strong of a reaction to the conditions that Five Pointers faced. I took notes about what I reacted to after reading, and I probably put a sentence or two on the page in relation to the conditions. Perhaps it’s because I’ve read about it so many times in so many other books depicting this location and era that it doesn’t have an effect on me anymore. Perhaps I’m just that heartless. Perhaps it’s some spectacular third reason.

As bad as their conditions were though, I disagree with Rebecca’s statement that these sort of conditions make socialism seem like the better option. With socialism, everyone gets the same pay, same amount of property. The incentive to work harder, the motivation to strive to do something creative or even beneficial to the community, is suppressed. With capitalism, the opportunity to use your brain and get ahead of others, it’s there. As Liz said, people are greedy anyway. Survival of the fittest, humans are always going to want to climb to the top and dominate the pyramid, no matter what economic system you use. I think capitalism embraces this undeniable aspect of human nature, instead of inhumanely suppressing it through socialism. [Despite how anti-socialism that may sound, I’m not THAT much against it… I’ve considered it over capitalism in the past too]

Oh no, now I’ve REALLY forgotten what I wanted to talk about. Hmm…

Is it wrong that what irked me was not the conditions in which these people lived, but rather the process that certain areas of NY had to undergo? I was particularly torn apart when reading about the Collect in Anbinder. In fact, I was distraught about Queens as well in Foner. They both seemed to depict serene, naturally beautiful areas that would have made Laura Ingalls Wilder squeal with joy. Then the city has to expand, or the slaughterhouses have to relocate due to being banned from inhabited areas. Goodbye nature, and hello congested city life. I can’t believe that something as “verdant and bucolic” as the Collect Pond area became the notorious slum that was Five Points. But I love observing nature, so that’s just me.

Speaking of observing, as “slumming” was described in greater detail in Anbinder, I couldn’t help but feel a little annoyed. The term “self-fulfilling prophecy” came to mind. It was like viewing wild animals on display. I felt that if I lived in Five Points and saw people being escorted around to “observe” us, I would feel like I was some sort of animal. I would probably eventually truly believe that I was some substandard form of man, and this would hinder my psychological and mental growth. While slumming may benefit those unaware of poverty or looking to write exposes, I still feel like it would create a culture of poverty, a group of people who would feel that they were destined to be filthy and poor, and would never be able to rise above that (I don’t know if “culture of poverty,” refers directly to what I just described though). Being on display like that, I felt like it made the Five Pointers feel trapped within their low status, and doomed to stay there.

Something that also irked me was how Five Points was being “used.” Anti-abolitionists used  FP as a means to say that slaves weren’t that bad off; Republicans used the Democratic orientation that FP had as a means to put down the Democratic Party. It made me feel like “Not only are these people poor and filthy, but they’re being used for other group’s corrupted agendas?”

Foner’s book is always full of facts and statistics, and I find that you’re either interested in the statistics, or you’re not. Certain figures managed to grab my attention. One of the facts that interested me from her chapter was the lack of Asian discrimination and their ability to move more easily into middle-class suburban areas. I was also amazed at some of the finer distinctions that she managed to pinpoint among ethnic groups. As someone who is Guyanese, I was amazed to see that she took a brief moment to state how interesting it was that Guyanese Indians and Guyanese Blacks tend to live apart in different areas, despite being from the same country. I didn’t think the distinction could have been made (I know of the clash between the two groups in Guyana, but I wasn’t aware that it was evident based on how Guyanese immigrants settle in the city).

I actually was intrigued by the transition from Five Points to Brownsville as I read the books. Anbinder mentions the area a few times in his chapters, and then I opened a book that described its history in great detail. Again, I was angered at how farmland was turned into a tenement display. But personally, as I read this, I felt like it was almost no different from the conditions described in FP, except this community had the Jewish feel. I actually felt like everything I read in this chapter had been said for Five Points (of course, there were political, social, and cultural differences).

Canal Street was mentioned often when describing the history of Five Points. Having been to Canal Street to attend a performance that was mandatory for my Arts Seminar, I was really intrigued. Canal street seemed so normal (I cant think of any other word besides that), and so I couldn’t believe what it once was. This actually sparked my interest and made me search up the history of where I grew up, which would be Jamaica, Queens. We are residing on top of crucial history, and we sometimes forget it.

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Response 3/1

I agree with the quote that Liz used from the Foner chapter; in many situations, the reality and the image that we see something in are completely different.  One main example that Foner talks about was the example of ethnic neighborhoods.  Foner mentions a great example of how some people perceived the tenement lifestyle of immigrants.  She talks about how the media has idealized what tenements were like for immigrants. Her example is of a Christmas special in which Mrs. Santa went to the Lower East Side in a ” well-furnished, clean, and rather spacious apartment” which goes against all reality of ethnic neighborhoods (Foner 36).  This is only one example of how the image and reality are different and how neighborhood horrors were romanticized by society.

Reading about the reality of immigrant neighborhoods allows me to be truly thankful for what I have today. The reading that especially struck me was Anbinder’s neighborhood description in the Five Points. There were so many horrors to take in at once as to how the immigrants were treated.  Being crowded in small rooms with families of sometimes more than four kids made these tenements immensely crowded.  To read that bathtubs and even beds were considered blessings and luxuries makes me realize how much I have.  Children sleeping in rags and even under tables as a daily routine was truly sad to read about.  To not even have working sewage lines and live in many people’s waste also angered me as well because landlords actually had immigrants pay for these conditions. Why would someone need to pay just to live in horrendous conditions that are beyond humane; one account in Anbinder talks about how a woman would search sixteen hours a day to find pieces of hair in garbage to sell to wigmakers so that she could pay her $5.00 rent.  She did this just so that she could live in a crowded tenement with rarely any heat or lighting. This was not an image but unfortunately the reality of tenement life.

I agree with what Rebecca said about how the rich detested helping the poor. However, seeing that the poor helped out each other with what little they had  amazed me. Despite their adversity, they tried to help each other out when society would not. It made me realize how evil the higher classes were during this time. They visited the neighborhoods not to help out the poor but only to watch how they lived; reading that does make you realize how evil human nature can be at times. I wondered why society would not help clean the neighborhoods or show some sort of help to show that they cared about them. Instead, rarely anything was done to help them, making this reality saddening to see and totally different from that Christmas special shown on TV.

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Spark 3/1

In the beginning of Foner, she says “the image and the reality are different” and that popular imagination has a way of romanticizing the old neighborhoods.  She is absolutely right.  If people truly thought that “the old ethnic neighborhoods were closely knit communities where their grandparents and great-grandparents struggled to realize the American dream. Conditions were hard, the story goes, but immigrants were excited about being in America and determined to do well,” then they have a completely incorrect picture about what it was really like living in tenements back then.  Their “Disneyfied” versions of tenement life glossed over the hardships people had to live with every day in un-Disneyfied, real tenement life.

The true tenement and Five Point conditions described in Anbinder and Foners’ books were atrocious.  It was painful to read about how people lived crammed into tiny apartments as large as a modern-day living room, without enough room for people to sleep.  The lengths they went to in order to get a bed was terrible- not only did they sleep on floors, but they even slept on makeshift beds of four chairs put together in the kitchen, and were rudely awakened by chairs being pulled out from under them when people came in for breakfast.  It was almost better to sleep on chimneys and fire escapes, which they did when the weather was nice, than to sleep in those “apartments”.

It is no wonder there was an awful outbreak of cholera- imagine living day after day without taking a real shower, having to use buckets and sponges to clean yourself, wearing the same ripped, dirty rags day after day, and not even having a bathroom.  I can’t even imagine four families sharing ONE BATHROOM.  And it wasn’t even a bathroom- it was an outhouse.  The sheer number of people living in such close quarters in such bad conditions… its no wonder diseases like cholera spread so fast and killed so many people.

I wasn’t surprised to read about the drunks, murders and prostitution because those types of behavior are common among the poor and destitute who live in such a situation as described above.  What DID surprise me though, was the fact that white and black people lived together, drank together, and there wasn’t the tension and animosity I’ve come to expect.  Even in those conditions, among the poorest of the poor, I still thought that poor whites had a sense of superiority over their black neighbors and wouldn’t live peacefully among them.

The most disheartening part of the entire situation is the lack of action taken to improve things.  Many people wrote articles publicizing the conditions people lived in at Five Points, and the rich people even went “slumming” with police escorts to gawk at others’ misfortune, but did not feel a shred of obligation or desire to help these people out and donate money, clothes, food or SOMETHING.  “Slumming” and visiting Five Points even became a standard part of a tourist’s itinerary!  People seemed to be embarrassed and disgusted, but made no move to help!  They even went so far as to say it was the poor people’s fault they lived that way because they were so lazy and just sat around drinking and prostituting all day.  How could they not realize that if they had the means to escape, the poor people would be out of there in a flash?  They were the victims and needed to be helped.

I’m not saying I am pro-slavery, but the South was right on this occasion- the North should worry about “fixing their own skirts” and taking care of their immediate issues, such as the living situation at Five Points, before looking to improve the South and abolish slavery.

To respond to Rebecca’s spark, I don’t think capitalism is entirely at fault.  Socialism has its fair share of problems as well, and as an economic system, I think capitalism is better than socialism.  The competition supported by capitalism is necessary to bolster the economy and make new improvements/ discoveries that everyone will benefit from (even if the inventor’s intention is just to become a millionaire and not to help mankind).  I think human nature is at fault here.  People in general are essentially greedy, lazy and selfish, especially when they fall into money.  That’s why this problem would exist in a socialist society as well as a capitalist society- in a socialist society, since everyone gets equal money and possessions anyway, there is no incentive for people to work to better themselves and society.  On the flip side, in a capitalist society people are so focused on amassing more wealth that they don’t stop to think about helping the very unfortunate people below them.  I think it is pretty messed up that people worry about buying a third car/ second house or a fancy new gadget, when other people are struggling to find a bite to eat, or a street corner to sleep on.

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Spark

On page 18 of “Brownsville, Brooklyn,” Wendell Pritchett writes:  “Separating fact from myth, reality from nostalgia, is difficult.” Throughout the readings, especially the two chapters from Anbinder, I found it difficult to get a clear picture of how life in Five Points actually was. In both Pritchett and Anbinder’s novels, the hellish descriptions of Five Points and Brownsville are contradicted by tales of immigrant success and by hints that residents of these impoverished neighborhoods may have actually been relatively happy.

Anbinder reveals on page 37: “There may have been irredeemable individuals, yet the immigrants who dominated Five Points survived and eventually thrived in their new homeland. Five Points had more fighting, drinking, and vice than almost everywhere else; but also more dancing and nightlife, more dense networks of clubs and charities, and opportunities both small and large for those who seized them.”

A description of Five Points from Davy Crockett’s An Account of Col. Crockett’s Tour to the North and Down East on page 26 of “Five Points” also gives conflicting positive and negative descriptions: “The buildings are little, old, frame houses and looked like some little country village…. It appeared as if the cellar was jam full of people; and such fiddling and dancing nobody ever saw before in this world. Black and white, white and black, all hugemsnug together, happy as lords and ladies, sitting sometimes round in a ring, with a jug of liquor between them: and I do think I saw more drunk folks, men and women, that day, than I ever saw before.”

“I thought I would rather risk myself in an Indian fight than venture among these creatures after night. I said to the colonel, ‘…these are worse than savages; they are too mean to swab hells kitchen.”

Whether or not the conditions described are over exaggerated, I find it hard to imagine that anyone could be happy living in the Five Points tenements. The sweltering heat, the freezing cold, the filth, the excrement, and the perpetual darkness that flooded the tenements  – conditions that should have been unbearable were endured by hundreds of desperate people. Reading about these miserable living conditions makes me especially grateful to be writing this from my own, quiet, clean, warm bedroom.

Multiple times in “Five Points,” Anbinder describes the tenements as prisons and the tenants as inmates held captive by their poverty. I found this ironic considering that the Common Council had petitioned in 1830 to replace the tenements with an actual prison but were unable to pass it because “disease would spread uncontrollably in a prison built on such low damp ground.” I scoffed at the idea that what was considered to be unfit for prisoners was suitable for hundreds of struggling, hardworking people.

Living day-to-day, unable to pay the rent, and constantly smelling shit it’s amazing to me that only some of the Five Points residents sought comfort in prostitutes and alcohol or relieved stress through the medium of drunken brawls. Hell, if I had to live in a literal shit hole and risk dying either from cholera or apartment fires everyday, I would drink every night until I blacked out and take a swing at anyone who insulted me or my ethnic background. The loathsome attitude felt by outsiders towards the Five Points residents is completely ridiculous.  Instead of judging the Five Pointers, it might have been nice if someone (other than religious missionaries) tried to help them.

I got the impression from the Anbinder readings that tenement living was a lucrative industry for landlords, sub-landlords, the media (specifically newspapers), and the tourism industry. All four managed to make money off other people pain. Landlords and sub-landlords overcharged the struggling immigrants for shelter and skimped out on spending money to reduce fire hazards and protect the safely of their tenants. The newspapers sold millions of copies by covering stories about the miserable tenants and their misfortune and tour guides charged middle and upper class people money for tours of Five Points like some twisted kind of amusement park. Of course, it makes perfect sense why in capitalistic society, no one would help the Five Points residents: because Five Points was good business.

Like last week, I found the Anbinder readings to be the most captivating. The descriptions of the Five Points tenements were disgusting and yet oddly captivating. Initially, I was completely appalled by the practice of “slumming,” but I can understand why people would find Five Towns fascinating. As terrible as it was, I imagine slumming to be somewhat like stepping into a reality TV show filled with riots, fights, racial tensions, sex, alcohol addictions, and scandal. Really, how different is it from reality TV? Given the opportunity, I probably would have gone slumming too. It’s amazing how people are so captivated, so entertained by the suffering other people.

To the well off, helping the infamous Five Pointers was out of the question but Anbinder provides a handful of examples of the poorest of people helping each other. On page 88 Anbinder quotes a journalist: “The kindness of these poor people to each other is frequently astonishing but must be witnessed to be appreciated” and a House of Industry Publication: “a woman and five children in a room without a fire, and for the last two days they had no food save for a morsel given them by a neighbor almost as poor as themselves….”

The more I read about Five Towns, the more anti-capitalistic my thoughts became.  The drive for money and luxury items really is a terrible thing. It creates animosity between classes and justifies the exploitation of other human beings. The poor being victimized most often, I was not at all surprised by the socialist movement in Brownsville, Brooklyn. For those suffering under capitalism, socialism seems like a reasonable solution.  While socialism has its pitfalls, you have to admit capitalism is pretty screwed up. Maybe I really am a Marxist….

 

 

 

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Response

Like William and ToniAnn, I found immigrants discriminating against other immigrants to be both infuriating and ironic.  All immigrants arrived in America searching for something, whether it was jobs or freedom or relief from the accursed potato blight.  For immigrants, America represented the light of the end of the journey–for them New York City was a beacon of hope.  Maybe this explains why most Irish immigrants who were originally sent to Canada preferred to move to the City.

In many cases, what we perceive something to be, or what we want something to be is actually more important than what the something actually is.  Immigrants, past and present, wanted New York City to hold for them a better life.  There’s no doubt that they would have heard of the conditions of the City from relatives already living there, but I think that they needed to believe that New York City would provide a better life for them in order to survive the ordeals of that they were going through at that time and the sufferings on the journey here.

Posted in February 22 Peopling of NY: Old and New Immigrants | Leave a comment

Response # 3

Although charts and statistics do clearly show how many immigrants actually made it all the way to America and how many lost their lives on their way here, it is impossible to imagine the conditions each person went through in order to reach their destination. Reading first person accounts on the journey old immigrants had to take to arrive to America was extremely terrifying and saddening- crowded, tightly packed, unhealthy, dirty etc. These immigrants went through  such horrible conditions only to encounter with more and in some cases even worse conditions once they had reached here. On the other hand, immigrants that travel to America now have it easier with comfortable seats on the place.

However, the reasons why the old and new immigrants took upon such a journey to America can be seen as both similar and different. Similar because they were looking for better economic conditions through which they could either help their family back home or just survive on a day-to-day basis. Even though, the immigrants that travel to America now might be more professional and skilled than the ones that arrived earlier, both groups were in need of economic stability and better living conditions. Different because the old immigrants actually had no other choice and had to leave their country in order to survive. For example, the Irish came because of the potato famine which left them no other choice but to leave; and for the other immigrant groups, the Chinese and the Italians, due to living in extreme poverty. New immigrants do not have to leave because they do not have a choice, but because they want to live better off than they are in their home country or at least they believe so.Whether it be old immigrants or new immigrants their main reason to come to America was because they wanted to start a new life and for them America was the place to be, as William said “yearning for a better income, life and opportunity.

All in all, it was very sad, even disturbing to some extent, to read about the difficulties and hardships many faced in hopes of acquiring better conditions in America, whether or not they actually received them.

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interactive history website

http://www.besthistorysites.net/multimedia.shtml

http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/timeline/timelineO.cfm

i love the second one.

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