THE PEOPLING OF NEW YORK: MHC @ Lehman

This weeks reading reminded me a lot about the things we already discussed in class. However, there were many points that didn’t come up in our discussions. The first thing I noticed in the Foner reading was the fact that the new immigrants differ from the old wave of immigrants because of their level of education. Even though we had this idea introduced to us a few weeks ago, I can’t help but wonder why are the more skilled immigrants coming now as opposed to then? Soon after, the conditions of tenement life was described again, and the author wrote that those conditions are “almost un-imaginable” to modern-day New Yorkers.

Although to us the conditions seem very harsh and unsanitary, I feel that they weren’t the biggest issue for those living in them. When Samuel Chotzinoff described the way his family lived, he said that at the time their living “arrangement didn’t strike [them] in any way unusual.” Also, a Jewish resident noted, “To live, a family of eight in three rooms seemed to us quite normal, as was being without a bathroom and sharing the toilet with three neighbors.” Later in the reading, the author goes on discussing how many of today’s immigrants live in similar conditions. My question is, to what extent did the “new law” tenements change the lives of immigrants that had to live in them.
These readings focus a lot on the fact that through the years, the immigrants keep coming back to the same areas of New York City. Even though the main job focus has changed from industrial to service work, what are some of the reasons that they are attracted to the same locations as before?

The Anbinder readings of Chinatown discussed the Chinese being driven out of California by Kearny (an Irish immigrant) and his followers because they blamed the Chinese for unemployment. Do you think that blaming economic problems on immigrants is a recurring issue? Why?

After one Chinese immigrant told the story of a man from his tribe that returned from America with unlimited wealth, he said that the reason he came to America was to gain some of this wealth himself. Do you think this represents the reasoning behind immigration to America, and more specifically New York City? Was this the reason in the older waves of immigration, the current one, or both? A majority of today’s immigrants have at least a High School diploma and are from the middle classes of their societies. How does this play a role in immigration for economic reasons?

The Anbinder reading not only discusses the reaction of groups of immigrants to other groups of immigrants, but also the reaction of Americans to immigrants. One observation is that “Most white Americans found the sight of any Chinese immigrant exercising the rights of citizenship appalling.” Do you think this was a reaction to most immigrant groups by white Americans? Based on what we’ve read in class and your previous knowledge of immigration, why did white Americans feel this way toward immigrants (even though their ancestors were also immigrants)?

The Kasinitz reading described a lot of the issues that African Americans and West Indians had to face in terms of segregation. My question is, how do you think the relationship between whites and blacks, and blacks and West Indians has changed over time? Has our society become more accustomed to diversity in race? Is the fact that we have a half-black President a representative of a change in attitudes toward race?

The issue of segregation didn’t only come up in the last reading; it has been prominent in all of our readings of immigration so far. For those of you that lived or have ventured out of the city into other parts of New York and the United States, do you think that people are more accepting of others than before? What is the major factor in this change?

I’m not going to comment yet, just wanted to thank Anna for writing us a book for her spark.

I’m sorry, Alex. This reading was just really interesting and I had a lot of questions. Trust me, this isn’t even half of what I wrote originally. So, you’re welcome! 🙂

The answer to the question that arose from your reading of the Foner section is that America has advanced to a level where it demands and sufficiently rewards highly skilled labor. A doctor in the United States makes a greater salary, has better stability, and is more respected than the doctor in any out of number of other countries. The largest corporations are based in America. During the first waves of immigration, America attracted less skilled people because it was a new nation that was going through much development and its room for social escalation would provide them with a better quality of life than their situation at home. Also, there existed then a lot more push factors and in greater severity, so it was those in dire need to leave their country that came here. People have more options today when faced with financial, social, and other crises; the first thought is not so much “we ought to move to America” as it was back then.

The harsh living conditions were not too bothersome to the people because they became accustomed to those circumstances and had worries of greater magnitude that overpowered the pains from their living conditions. Despite changes in the work field, I think people were still attracted to the same locations because of financial reasons and convenience. Just because you have a different job does not mean your rent is cheaper. Another reason for people going or sticking to the same location is perhaps they’ve just heard good thing about the place. Even in the story from the Anbinder reading about the Chinese man who returned to his town as a wealthy man, we notice that the man tells his people about a specific place in NYC, Mott Street. After seeing him and hearing his stories, the people are most likely to find this “Mott Street” they’ve heard about when they come to NYC and live there. It’s no surprise that 95% of the Chinese population in Five Points lived between Mott and Bowery Street.

Clearly, blaming economic problems on immigrants has been a recurring issue. We’ve seen this throughout history. Black, Irish, Chinese, Mexican, and other groups of people have been blamed for economic crises in the past. Why? I don’t know a definite answer. People always like to have someone to blame, so I suppose that is a possible reason why this recurring issue exists. And who is better to blame than the new comers, right? If an economic disaster happens to occur at the same time a large flow of a certain group is immigrating into the United Sates, people immediately put the blame there, and forget that correlation is not causation. But that is not even the case, and there is rarely, if at all, any actual correlation for these blames.

The little story of the once poor boy leaving to America and returning as a man of unimaginable riches is a great example of the fantastic view that outsiders, especially those in poor and unstable countries, have of America. This image of wealth was certainly a great motive for the many immigrants of the first waves of immigration, but I don’t think it is so much the case today. Though it’s true that America offers a better quality of life than most of the other counties in the world, people today in general have less far-fetched views of America and do not all come for wealth alone.

Why do immigrant groups act harshly with new immigrant groups? Perhaps they just felt vulnerable and feared being replaced. Immigrant groups know and remember how they took jobs from those who were there before, by asking for lower wages and not demanding specific conditions. They fear that the new group of immigrants will do the same, work for lower wages and in ever worse condition, and take their jobs from them. This is just a possible assumption of mine.

Though I have not traveled to that many places around the country, my understanding from what I’ve gathered from the media, friends, personal experiences, and simple reasoning, makes me believe that people throughout the United States are generally more accepting of others than before. Familiarity increases liking, as understood by the exposure effect, in which one is expected to develop a liking for the thing that one is familiar with. As larger number of immigrants are moving to places that were once somewhat demographically conservative, it is only reasonable to expect Americans in general to be more accepting of people of different cultures. When the people of a majority white populated town in Wisconsin find Indian families moving into their neighborhood, they will most likely welcome them or it is only a matter of time before they learn to accept them. Hollywood has become more accepting of others racially, physically and sexually, and that causes the people to become more accepting as well. The fact that Hollywood is more accepting also reflects the pubic. I do not want to sound pessimistic, but I do feel that there will always exist a number of people who will not accept a certain group of people. Despite that, America overall has become much more accepting than it was before and will only become more accepting of others as time goes on.

The second chart from the Foner reading was interesting. Though a greater percentage of native born own their own homes than percentage of foreign born who own their own homes, the small percentage difference is a good thing. I would expect there to be a direct correlation in which those with greater income would own a greater percentage of homes, but that doesn’t seem to be the case. It’s interesting how although they have the same median household income, a significantly greater percentage of foreign born Europeans own their own homes than the foreign born Caribbeans, Africans, Mexicans, and Central and South Americans. This is recurring as we look at the other statistics on the same chart. Nevertheless, if we were to make a scatter plot it would still show that in general those with relatively higher income own a greater percentage of homes.

Foner’s “From Ellis Island to JFK” depicts the settlement patterns of various immigrant nationalities from the Italians to the Eastern European Jews. Not only do the new wave of immigrants differ in education than the old wave, they also came to the U.S. with more to offer in terms of business, which is why they were able to create these close-knit communities. I don’t really think it matters if the immigrants that are coming now are more skilled, i think that they are here now because they can be. It is much easier to get into the United States today than it was 100 years ago because of the advancement in transportation. Foner establishes the fact that “not much has changed in the past hundred years. Rat infested rooms, urine-drenched passageways, illegal apartments carved out of basements and gangways.” My question is why has NYC done nothing to change and improve the living conditions? If you were in the mayors position, what initiatives would you take to improve the living conditions of immigrants? Why is it that after over a hundred years these conditions still exist?
The construction of New Law Tenements in 1901 in my opinion did absolutely nothing if immigrants are living in similar conditions now. One thing i found interesting was that why did they not make it mandatory to install a bath and toilet in every apartment? In my opinion, it would make the most sense to have that in every apartment because we all know how crappy public bathrooms are.
One last question regarding the Foner reading: How did the establishment of public transportation help immigrants branch out of the lower east side into other neighborhoods uptown(Brownsville) while maintaining their jobs?

The Anbinder reading had many connections with the Kasinitz reading. I think it was a little ironic how the Irish forced the Chinese immigrants out of California. Not too long ago, the Irish were treated as harshly as the Chinese were when they first came. Can we think of any other example in which former immigrants discriminate against newcomers? Why did the Irish discriminate so much against the Chinese newcomers?
I found the story of the Chinese immigrant recalling the idea of immigrating for the first time very cliche. What do you think are the reasons for people in other countries thinking that America is a country that just gives away riches? What causes this terrible misinterpretation of American life for immigrants?

Kasinitz points out the struggles that West Indians and Afro-Caribbeans go through. One interesting thing to look at is that Ofosky estimated that by the mid 1920’s the black population of Harlem was 25% immigrant. going back to the Foner reading, do you think that there was any racial tension between the eastern European Jews and Italians that settled close to that area (110th street)? How does the racial homogenization of a neighborhood reflect on the community?(looking at the examples of Chinatown, little Italy, Lower East Side, etc..) Although the South may be more associated with racism, reading Kasinitz would you say otherwise? Is there more underlying racism in NYC with neighborhood divides, the city not caring for living conditions of minorities than in the South? Anyone that has read Jonathan Kozol’s “Amazing Grace” would understand that there are many West Indians and Afro Caribbeans that are living in horrible conditions are were pushed together into impoverished neighborhoods. One last question to think about: What factors contributed to this concentration of ethnic minorities?

I’m not going to respond to this yet either. But I HAVE to congratulate Alex on making my 1 AM browsing MUCH more enjoyable with his comment. “LOL”

I don’t think that Americans should blame economic or unemployment problems on new immigrants. Perhaps I should educate myself more before I make comments about this issue, but many immigrants, especially in earlier times, took jobs that Americans would not do for any amount of money. Building and hard labor were the jobs usually done by immigrants for extremely low pay. Now, in addition to the unskilled labor given to immigrants such as gardening and cleaning, there are many more skilled workers coming to America looking to find or make work. Many open their own businesses, like restaurants, markets, and nail salons, which help the economy.

The immigrants who come from the same countries as these business openers support the establishments, and as long as everything is legal money is put into our economy. I suppose the problem of hatred/resentment towards immigrants comes when the skilled laborers come over and take jobs that people who have been here longer would have wanted (I say people who have been here longer and not Americans because, obviously, mostly everyone in America has a history of immigration). Though this can be hard to accept, I think ultimately this increases the level of our nation because it is more competitive and the better educated and skilled workers are running things. It may be more challenging to get a job, but in the end, the work is done better and we have nicer things and nicer places to go.

Many immigrants, such as the Chinese man from the second reading who acquired extreme amounts of wealth, came and are still coming to America in the hopes of making a lot of money. My mom has many friends at work who plan on working and staying in America, saving their money, and then moving back to their homelands to retire with their cash- able to live a more luxurious lifestyle. I think this idea of foreign born people coming to America, taking jobs, saving up money and then leaving is what raises bitter feelings. People might feel like they are taking something that is not meant for them…taking advantage, taking their jobs and their money, etc. In reality, we are all just immigrants trying to make a better life for ourselves and our families.

Anna’s Q: Why are the more skilled immigrants coming now as opposed to then?
A: I think more skilled immigrants are immigrating to NYC now than did before because NYC and America now has a greater need for skilled workers. A century ago, the mass majority of incoming immigrants consisted of industrial workers, who found work in factories, as well as taking the lowest jobs in the city, such as janitors. Today, however, with outsourcing and the way American society has become structured, there is far less industrial work to be done in America, so immigrants learn to do what they are needed to do, and that is skilled work.

Anna’s Q: Even though the main job focus has changed from industrial to service work, what are some of the reasons that they are attracted to the same locations as before?
A: The reason so many immigrants continue to migrate to NYC after a full century, despite the change in the work field, is because immigrants feel more accepted and welcomed in NYC than anywhere else in America. This does not mean that they are welcomed with open arms and New Yorkers are happy to have them here, but with the mass diversity in the city, immigrants can get more comfortable here since they blend in a lot better than they would anywhere else.

Anna’s Q: Do you think that blaming economic problems on immigrants is a recurring issue? Why?
A: I think that blaming economic problems on immigrants is definitely a recurring problem. I think the reason for this is that Americans use immigrants as scapegoats to pin the problems of the economy on. I’m sure that if no immigrants came to America, we would still have economic problems, so immigrants do not deserve the blame. However, Americans realize the economic problems, and do not want to own up to it, so they point the finger at immigrants, who are the most defenseless people here. A comparison I think of is when a young child draws on the wall with a crayon and tells his mom that their younger toddler sibling did it, knowing that the toddler can’t defend himself.

Anna’s Q: Do you think this represents the reasoning behind immigration to America, and more specifically New York City? Was this the reason in the older waves of immigration, the current one, or both?
A: I think that stories of mass wealth and success are a reason behind immigration to NYC and America. I think it is a reason behind both waves of immigration, although more so the older ones. I think poor foreigners in their homeland dream up an extraordinary image of America that only exists in movies. I think they see golden streets of opportunity, where they can come with nothing and ascend to greatness. I think with the current wave of immigration, immigrants have a more realistic sense of what America is like, but still believe that with a bit of hard work and determination, they can cash in on the American dream.

Ivan’s Q: Why has NYC done nothing to change and improve the living conditions? Why is it that after over a hundred years these conditions still exist?
A: The reason immigrants have been forced to live in scarce conditions for over a century is because to the city of NY, improved living conditions for immigrants is a relatively low priority. I don’t think the mayor’s office is overly concerned with immigrants having low quality everything because New Yorkers and the city of NY has got enough problems that need to be dealt with. At the risk of sounding harsh, like I said before, immigrants are the most defenseless people in the city. They are new here, and are too concerned with finding work and providing for their family to petition the city for better living conditions, and the city knows this.

Ivan’s Q: How did the establishment of public transportation help immigrants branch out of the lower east side into other neighborhoods uptown (Brownsville) while maintaining their jobs?
A: I think the answer to this question is a simple one. With the introduction of the subway and public transportation, immigrants were able to commute to their jobs from almost anywhere in the city, where as before, the were forced to live near their jobs because there was no convenient way of traveling through the city to work.

Although much of the Foner reading was similar to what we have read before (re the statistics and all that), I thought it was interesting to see how different immigrant groups have effected different changes, and how each group has learned to adapt.

In answer to Anna’s question about the “new law” tenements, I think that maybe life did not change enough for those who lived in the tenements. Although laws were enacted mandating certain requirements, such as a window, a bathroom, and a certain number of people per room, there were many instances either of landlords not enforcing regulations or inhabitants simply not following them. Maybe landlords should have done a better job of enforcing the new laws for the sake of their tenants, and not functioning solely on the basis of whether or not they would get caught.

The question of education is an interesting one as well. I think there is a certain dualism which exists: on the one hand, a diploma has become almost a necessity to enter a particular field, while on the other the ubiquity of diplomas has in many ways cheapened the value of a degree. While I think it is good for everyone to be able to get a good education, I don’t think that it’s fair that just because someone doesn’t have a piece of paper he or she is not qualified for a job. Going back to what Ilana said last week, he may have attained the same talents as the person with a degree; in fact, in many cases, the person without a degree will have more real-world experience. So I think that the fact that many immigrants have at least a high school diploma and are middle-class is actually not necessarily a good thing, because a high school diploma really does not mean all that much.

At least in New York, I think our society has become more accustomed to and accepting of every race. The fact that so many different races and ethnicities are living together is a testament to this. Not only are we putting up with each other, but we are actually enjoying all the different cultures. We can go eat Thai food, go listen to some Caribbean music, and watch Russian ballet, all in the same night (crazy night, huh?).

In response to Ivan’s question about why NYC has done little to improve living conditions, I have no good response. What I don’t understand is why the City has to make all these new tax laws and smoking laws, when there is so much revenue it could be getting from other places, such as housing? If the City needs all this revenue to “balance the budget” why not go after obvious problems like housing, instead of creating new ones?

I believe that unsanitary and illegal conditions are still prevalent today like old days. Like the example I gave of the family friend who lives in Queens; she lives in a one bedroom with three roommates with no heat. Now, one would say she’s being treated unfairly, but she chooses to live that way to save money. The “new law” is functional in most cases, but like every law it’s not always a 100% effective.
I would say blaming immigrants for economic distress is wrong because with the first wave of immigration, the economic boom occurred because of the immigrants. No one gave them credit for it, so no one should blame them either.

To answer Ivan’s question of why NYC is still the same, I would say because immigrants live in scarce conditions to save money like I said before. They probably don’t mind not having privacy or don’t mind sharing the apartment of a bathroom with other people. Like Dylan mentioned, they’re too busy providing for their family and not worrying about petitioning the city for better conditions. For the 2nd question, I’d say that subways and buses are excellent for modes of transportation as it’s convenient and cheap.

I agree with Dylan’s response on how the more skilled and educated immigrants are probably coming over more now today than they were because of the demand of the jobs. The sad thing is, a lot of people who I know who are immigrants certainly do not have the same respectable job that they have in the US as they did in their home country. The movie Namesake, for instance, gives a good idea on how that looks- in the movie the father had been a doctor (I think it was a doctor…anyway, it was something important) and when he got to the US he ended up working in a deli for the rest of his life. He even mentions that while life in the US is better even without his job, it must be a really difficult transition- not only in terms of finances, but the way that people treat you certainly changes =(. I certainly can see how people blame economic issues on immigrants, but it is a completely silly thing to do. There are many issues in todays economy, especially with the financial crisis. Right after the financial crisis first hit, I remember constantly hearing conversations on how it was the illegal immigrants who were “stealing all the jobs”. But like it has been mentioned in the blog multiple times, a lot of the jobs that the illegal and legal immigrants are taking are not ones that many of the US born citizens would want to take. As the readings mentioned and as Ivan mentioned, it seems that new people are disliked and forced around almost everywhere they go. This isn’t just in immigration- it’s almost everywhere. People dislike change a lot of the time- whether it is an incoming group of freshman at a school, a new person at a job, or a new group of people who has moved in from another country, the idea that ones stability might be disrupted with a fresh batch of people is frightening. At the same time, it is inevitable, so while one may not like it, there is no reason to try and fight it- because they will lose.
There is tons more to put into this, but seriously, it seems as though everyone has said everything already, so I guess if anything it will just be discussed in class!

I think something to keep in mind when comparing the lifestyles of immigrants from the Second Wave and today’s immigrants is the global lifestyle conditions and the times. Although Foner goes into great detail describing the filth of the tenements and the limited access to proper toilets and bathtubs, my theory is that the “arrangement didn’t strike [them] in any way unusual” because these were the conditions they were used to in their country of origin.
Nowadays, the global world views indoor plumbing as a right we are entitled to as human beings.

As to why immigrants are predominantly from the middle class in the current wave, globalization may play a key role; during the Second Wave, villages received letters from relatives in the U.S. describing a land paved with gold. However, improved domestic living conditions, combined with a window into the American lifestyle, through television and the internet, provides a better account than a relative’s letter, which might be an attempt of self-justification as to why he/she left the old country. Of course, some television shows (such as Gossip Girl, Gilmore Girls, Two and a Half Men, and the Real Housewives series, to name a few) depict unrealistic lifestyles, which immigrants would find most difficult, if not impossible, to achieve, at least in their generation, but it does provide a glimpse into the Land of Opportunity.

In terms of the New Law tenements, I do not think they had much of an effect. Assuming that landowners adhered to the law, one window per apartment does not make much of a difference, especially since pollution from factories possibly obscured the view. While muckrakers strove to provide advancements in terms of safety, the conditions were so dire that I do not believe they were much help. If one is crowded into an apartment with eight other people and is woken up by having one’s chair, which serves as a bed, pulled out from underneath one, I do not think a window view is much of a consolation. Additionally, the immigrants who moved into the newly regulated tenements had probably never experienced the old ones.

Anbinder’s text was a breath of fresh air. Instead of listing numbers and demographics, it narrated the exploitation of the Chinese immigrants both by the American government, as well as their own representatives. The details and narrations made life on Mott Street come alive, and gave the reader more of an understanding of the trials of these immigrants, such as having to use a grocery store as a postal address, due to constant migration.

The issue of race and racism in this week’s readings and responses is very prominent. Both Anna and Ivan brought up questions about discrimination towards immigrants and attitudes toward race. I’d like to think that being from Alabama gives me at least some degree of insight into the topic. I mean, my mom grew up in small town Mississippi in the 50s and 60s, where her school and church were segregated. So, an awareness of race and racism has followed me throughout my whole life.

I’d like to preface my response with a quote from the song “Subdivision” by Ani DiFranco.
“White people are so scared of black people.
They bulldoze out to the country
and put up houses on little loop-dee-loop streets.
While America gets its heart cut right out of its chest,
the Berlin Wall still runs down main street,
separating east side from west.”

The questions Anna and Ivan posed really reminded me of this quote, and it’s so true. This song aptly describes “white flight.” As the minority population of an urban community increases, white people move to the suburbs. This phenomenon was really pertinent to me growing up because downtown Montgomery died and subdivisions and shopping centers were being built left and right in east Montgomery. Now, the major is trying to revitalize downtown, which is a very slow process. But from what I have observed thus far in my short time of living in NYC, it’s like the opposite of white flight here. Upper-middle class and wealthy white people move into the city and “push out” immigrants and minorities from there neighbourhoods. I think this is called “gentrification.”

Anyway, I got totally off topic, but that’s just something that I thought about and wanted to bring up this week.

In response to Anna, yes blaming economic problems on immigrants is definitely a recurring issue. Immigrants are an easy target. People feel threatened by them. It’s called xenophobia. “They take our jobs.” “They’re a burden on the taxpayers.” Etc. People use immigrants as a scapegoat for their problems. It’s an easy way for people to deal with their problems, by blaming someone else.

Why do white Americans discriminate against immigrants? Like I said, because they feel threatened by them. They look different. The speak differently. They’re unfamiliar. Even though all white Americans are descended from immigrants, most of them are so far removed from it that they don’t feel like immigrants. I know that’s true in my case. All I know of my ancestry is that Heinrich Furr immigrated to North Carolina from Switzerland in 1640. From there, who knows what happened. I don’t feel any connection with Heinrich Furr and I definitely don’t consider myself Swiss.

Has our society become more accustomed to diversity in race? Do you think that people are more accepting of others than before? What is the major factor in this change? From my experience, I would say yes society has become more accustomed to diversity in race and people are more accepting of others than before. The major factor in this change is simply time. Each new generation is a little more liberal and a little more open-minded than the previous generation. Also, since so many different kinds of people live in the United States, we are more accustomed to seeing different races and ethnicities now. So, it’s not as unfamiliar as it was previously.

In response to Ivan, I think there are two reasons former immigrant groups discriminate against newcomers: because they feel threatened and because they can. Immigrants worked hard to make it in this country, so it makes sense that they would feel threatened by newcomers who could disrupt the progress they’ve made. Also, former immigrants have established themselves and now they can afford to discriminate against newcomers.

I think you bring up a very good point in your last question. Living in a Hispanic neighbourhood now, I have wondered why neighbourhoods in NYC are so ethnically divided. I realized it’s because people feel comfortable when they are around people like them, people who look like them, people who speak like them, people who share similar life experiences and viewpoints as them. People like to feel like they belong. They life familiarity. So, I don’t think ethnic divides are necessarily racist, but they do result because of race. But I don’t think I know enough about the politics and government of NYC to say whether the lack of concern for minorities’ living conditions is racist or not. I didn’t even know there was a lack of concern, but I figure it’s a hard issue to tackle. Addressing the economic and living conditions of all minorities would require lot of time, money, and manpower.

As I commented last week education is a fascinating topic especially when entwined with immigration. As the Foner readings mentioned and Anna, Ivan, and Kazzi noted more skilled workers and or more educated immigrants are coming. I agree with Ivan that it is indeed easier to immigrate and therefore people do for they can. But however no one question is simple and no one answer is simple either. I agree with Kazzi a little more though that an immigrants education will most likely be rewarded more in the States than in their home country. It is impossible to know the mentality and condition of every country and the opportunities available or not available there. But one thing is certain; there are more people alive today and therefore competition for labor on any level has intensified. Therefore any amount of education can be seen as an edge on your “opponent.” Or so many countries and peoples would believe but like I said it is impossible to know the mentality of all countries. Consider for a moment Italy. My family there has informed me of the way they think about education. High school and elementary schools are a necessity for you must learn the basics and mature there. After that college is usually considered a waste unless you know that you will be a professional success. Not that you have the desire, but that you have enough money and or connections along with your education that will help you become established. Most Italians believe that it is wiser to go straight into a job become an apprentice, master a skill, and then open up your own business centered around that trade. In this way they will have been working and making money and setting themselves up for the future meanwhile the people in college devote their time to study, have little to no money, and no outside skill. So if these educated few cannot establish themselves as professionals than they most likely become a tour guide in Italy or immigrate. These are the opinions of the common Italian as I have heard them, it is certainly that of my family and all there close friends. When my Grandmother and Grandfather visited Sicily their tour guide was a lawyer but told his story to my grandparents and explained in this very way that he never was able to practice and probably never will and that his education meant very little. It is indeed an interesting concept to consider and does support Kazzi’s theory that the educated will be more rewarded here in this country than they will in their home country.
As Ivan pondered how come little has changed in immigrant living condition I too ponder this same question. I do not entirely agree with Dylan however. As Dylan stated that the city or authorities as it may be are more concerned with other issues and don’t particularly care about immigrant living conditions and therefore do not get around to changing anything. I do not know the mind of a city official but I can be certain that money especially in this economy and recession is a major concern of everyone. In many houses in Flushing there are illegal apartments which house 3-4 families plus the owner and his family in an establishment designed to be a 1 or 2 family house. As everyone is concerned with money the immigrants who are low on money will settle into houses like this where they pay only for the number of people they have with them. The Government too is concerned with money and can earn some through building inspectors. The inspectors will certainly close houses like this down and bill the owner if not posses the home. Therefore the immigrant saving money on his cost of living by unfortunately living in poor conditions would most likely not complain or make known his current illegal state. So in conclusion Dylan I cannot say where immigrant living condition falls on the priority of the government but indeed money, or lack there of as the case may be, is an issue that infinitely seems to spur the continuation of these poor conditions.
While no question is simple and every answer is complex I think we can all agree with one thing from the reading. The blaming of immigrants for economic problems is not new and is not right. It indeed is the product of searching for a scapegoat in rough times but in reality the immigrant and the breath of life they bring with them is the continuation of the economy. One final point I would like to remark on is one of Kazzi’s questions. Why is there intolerance and harshness among different immigrant groups? One would think they are in similar conditions and therefore should get a long. But this is not a question of anthropology, history, or culture but rather psychology. It is probable that the initial immigrant group is reenacting the harsh treatment they received and thus extracting revenge for the bias they have suffered. It is probable that this harshness stems from, as Franz Fanon believed, the “stare.” He believed that groups who hated other groups saw from an initial contact with the opposing group some similarities that they despised or feared that existed within themselves. Fanon went on to theorize that the opposing group was different from the initial group and one group desired to be more like the other thus inferiority complexes formed and this harshness and hate towards other groups was born. It is more likely in economical terms however that the harshness is a product of competition for labor between people of the same social status. Perhaps however the continuity of harshness is a topic for psychology.

Wow. So, I just read my response and I would like to apologize for all the typos I made this week. Hopefully, you can still understand what I was trying to say.

I think that Anna’s spark comment poses a very good question regarding the reason immigrants flock to NYC. Despite the shift in availability of industry to service jobs, immigrants still come to the same parts of New York. Perhaps the influx of newly skilled working immigrants (mentioned in Foner’s text) has to do with it, because jobs in the service industry usually require a bit more training than do industrial jobs. This persistence in immigration attraction reflects on these areas’ ability to aid income generation and offer assimilative services for the new, incoming communities. Whatever the reason is that immigrants come to these parts of the city, it is probably very similar to the reason of other immigrants from the same country, which creates a community that is willing to offer help to its members. I think it is safe to say that immigrants will seek out a base on which to build and support their lifestyles, resulting in a sort of chain as more immigrants seek to find a community that will accept them. For example, perhaps some Chinese feel that they would be more comfortable in Chinatown than in China, even if the pull factor may be something as simple as the type of people they want to be around.

Additionally, in response to the question regarding the recurring blaming of economic pressures on immigrants, I believe that yes, as unfortunate as it seems, immigrant groups will find another group to victimize in the same manner they have been put down themselves. I don’t exactly understand how the social and cultural politics work whenever this blame-game occurs, so I don’t want to say that one group is “complaining” or “wrong,” but I do believe that there are more sophisticated ways in which communities can mobilize to compete in a fairer manner for jobs.

Ivan’s comment about the living conditions faced by many current immigrants brings to mind Samuel Chotzinoff’s anecdote in the Foner reading. I think Foner and many writers who label living conditions as “bad” or “squalid” miss the point that immigrants were probably not millionaires before moving to the host country, and that such conditions were perhaps normal or acceptable—even today. There are many things that I would tolerate living with that others would not, and vice versa; so to say that there needs to be an adjustment in the quality of life based on the perceptions of people from an entirely different socioeconomic class doesn’t really make sense to me.

I was interested to read about Kasinitz’s discussion on segregation faced by blacks in America. Juxtaposing this view on racism and prejudice with the real and current situation of the country, which is lead by a half-black president is a good notion to keep in mind as one looks at the plight of black immigrants. Not only do immigrants need to deal with racial barriers, but they also need to deal with the social stigma that comes with being an outsider in general. Perhaps America has become more open in terms of racial diversity and acceptance, but lacks that openness when it comes to allowing outsiders to immigrate and become part of the country.

It is true that there are more skilled immigrants entering Unites States but, the ratio of unskilled immigrants immigrated into the nation is still greater than skilled immigrants overall. But, it is also undeniable that these “skilled workers” could just be the effect of higher educational requirement throughout the world.

I was super excited to read other people’s response about the tenements in Chinatown and Little Italy because I know many people who live in this area and have visited their apartments. Well, these people do have the choice to live in a more comfortable neighborhood like the Bronx and Queens that have bigger apartments ; but they didn’t. This is as to why the harsh condition has not improved much because the tenements are not forced to live there instead they choose to live there even though the rents are insanely expensive.

I didn’t see a great deal of harshness among different immigrant groups other than subtyping and minor stereotype. Minority groups are often too busy working and focus on earning money to a point that they become aloof from other minority groups. And slowly, this aloofness transforms into a sense of intolerance.

ok so I’m having a problem this won’t let me submit my essay. It keeps saying my comment is “spammy”. What do I do?

This reading was also really interesting to me. But before I begin I just would like to apologize about this being late I got out of work at 10:30 pm and started working right after I got home from school. I think it’s really interesting that many new immigrants are more educated than immigrants before. However when I think about the many differences I don’t feel it is all that interesting. In recent times lots of new legislation has come about that constantly raises the standards of living and the minimum amount allowed. For example in the Foner reading there was new legislation regarding the tenement living conditions. As countries progress their awareness of what is acceptable and their standards about what should be acceptable and allowed are raised. There used to be a time when a child could stop attending school in elementary school and before that there was a time when only the rich attended school at all. The United States is not the only country that has progressed, so many other countries have added new laws to help improve if not their citizen’s quality of life, then the way in which other countries view them. There is also the fact that education is a lot easier to get to than it used to be.

So that’s not the whole essay…..

My favorite part about this reading was the story of the Irish kicking the Chinese out of California, after last week’s reading you would think they’d have a heart and understand the harsh situations that they both came from. In response to Ivan’s question, as someone already mentioned before (forgot who!!!!) its simply a matter of survival for the established immigrant group, they know that they themselves probably took many jobs from the preceding immigrant groups and fear that the same things might also happen to them!

Regarding the higher educated immigrants coming in today, I wholeheartedly agree with May in that there is much more unskilled immigrants coming in than skilled, and while the move from industrial to service jobs for immigrants is strong,many immigrants are still not educated in alot of instances to take those positions. This is probably due to the gap in the way education works, and the net loss of skill/worth when transitioning from a foreign country to the U.S.

For instance, I know someone’s parents who were “doctors” in a foreign country, they moved here and are now nurses. Now, nurses still make a ton of money, but the point is, they lost alot of potential revenue and stature due to the standardization of jobs and services today. You need a bachelors, then a M.D., and then 3-5 years residency training to be a general doctor in the U.S., in other countries, you go to a 4-5 year college, and they hand you your medical license at graduation. See the difference? Both are doctors, the latter probably will be a better doctor than the former,(4-5 years of hard medical school versus 11 years of disjointed studies) yet because of the processes involved in certification in the U.S. they are not paid as much, or even given their correct title.

I agree with Dylan that more skilled immigrants are coming in now rather than before because of the greater demand for skilled workers. There are also other factors involved including the fact that people don’t want to just make some money in dollars, but they want to live the “American Dream.” Coming in with such big dreams and more realistic views of New York (whether it is from media or from relatives who already live in America), they are more prepared to work in areas other than ones that no one else wants to do.
I also agree with Mimi’s point about the change in people’s status and treatment in America. A person who is so highly respected in another country may come into New York feeling no more special than the person sitting next to him on the D train. Those of us who lived here our whole lives won’t see this treatment as anything unusual, especially since “equality” is emphasized so much in this country. However, in other countries, making a little more money than someone else meant being looked up to and being given special attention, so this difference is seen as a very dig deal.
In response to a few of Ivan’s questions, I think that NY has made a lot of improvements in living conditions, but unfortunately, they are never enough. In any case, no matter how many regulations NY places to maintain a standard way for living, people looking for an inexpensive home will choose an illegal place such the basement of a private house. Once again, I have to agree with Dylan in the saying that improving living conditions for immigrants is not the biggest concern. On top of that, no one is willing to take up an stance against these circumstances because the immigrants themselves accepted those conditions and are not bothered to change them.
I’m going to have to agree with Mimi-I feel like everything I want to say has already been said so I’ll stop here.
(Oh, and I agree with Michal about Anbinder’s reading—I felt like it was so much easier to read about the Chinese immigrants rather than the statistics off of Foner’s reading =D)