THE PEOPLING OF NEW YORK: MHC @ Lehman

Okay, so on Ivan’s request, I’m sparking this week in his place.

Once again, I was surprised by the statistics of this week’s reading. Hearing about the huge explosion of immigration in the early 20th century is one thing, seeing the actual charts and numbers is another. It was interesting for me to see how much the number of Italians in particular has plummeted after 1965 compared to before 1965.

The education of the immigrants is an interesting point. Most of them did not have a high school education, and many did not even continue past grade school. This did not, however, stop them from getting jobs and becoming very successful. My own grandparents did not have a formal education past grade school, yet they were far smarter than a lot of other people I’ve met! But so much has changed; now, a college degree is not even what it once was. In many fields, going to graduate school or even beyond is required to make any headway. Do you think these relatively-new prerequisites of college/grad school education are good? Or are they simply unfortunate, but necessary, formalities?

Then there’s the part about the economy, which of course has particular relevance now. In the past, even despite bad economies, immigrants were still able to find jobs. Perhaps a cliche question, but nevertheless I think relevant: how do you think the current economy has effected and will effect immigration, if at all?

This chapter did a good job of showing how immigration has changed over the years. In the First Wave, the one with many Irish, there were pretty much no regulations at all, and getting citizenship was easy. By the time of the Second Wave, the one with the Italians and the Jews, people realized that such completely unrestricted immigration was completely unfeasible and impossible, so there were many regulations, some of which were good, but some of which were unrealistically restrictive. Also, immigration was restricted to a couple of select locations, one of which of course was Ellis Island. Now, in the Third Wave, there are not as many regulations, and there are many many many points of entry. However, the process of citizenship takes anywhere from 2 to 9 years. If you had to choose among the three waves of immigration, which immigration regulations do you think make the most sense?

I also liked the part about Haitians taking pictures in front of full refrigerators and sending them back home. I don’t have much to add about that, just wanted to say I liked it. 🙂

First off, I want to say I totally agree with you Peter, about the statistics. When you see them as such concrete numbers rather than in vague sentences it really is mind-boggling.

As far as the educational prerequisites one needs to have in order to really succeed in this city, I think it’s neither good nor bad, but in a gray area. I understand the fact that we are an advancing society and the need for higher education is greater but for some people having to get a higher education is more of a curse than a blessing. To a poor family, more education would mean less food on the table. At the same time, having these prerequisites would mean that more skilled workers are working here, which in turn is in the best interests of the City.

The economic recession we’re going through might have caused a lot of people to move from their homes but I think immigration will actually go up. Or at the very least, more people from other states will move to New York; because no matter how bad the economy is, there will always be more jobs available in a city. And since New York is one of the biggest cities in the world, more people will come.

If I had to chose which among the regulations from the three waves of immigration makes the most sense to me, it would be this current wave. It’s definitely not perfect, because 9 years is a long time to have to wait and a long time ahead to be thinking about the future. I have family that applied about 10 years ago and now they’re getting their permission to come here. Nevertheless, I think it makes the most sense because we’re not blindly letting everyone in but we don’t have the toughest filtration process. This means that people can enter the country with medical problems and receive the medical assistance they wouldn’t have received at home. During the second wave of immigration, these people were often sent back to their original country. But unlike the third wave of immigration we don’t let everyone in which keeps us and the city just a little bit safer. Not letting everyone in is all the more better because the need for unskilled labor is decreasing. If everyone could enter the City, there would be a shortage of jobs for the unskilled and a large empty slots for skilled labor.

Immigration- a tough topic to discuss. I don’t think that I will have very good, complete answers for your questions, Peter. The issue of immigration has no right or wrong answers- but I will try my best.

I didn’t enjoy this weeks reading as much as I did last weeks, I feel like it was too compressed with facts. Nevertheless, those facts were horrifying. I’ve never read anything as detailed as this about the first or second wave of immigration. I found it interesting that there is such a distinct difference in education between the different waves of immigration. I wonder what the reason behind that is. I don’t know if the “relatively-new prerequisites of college/grad school education” are good, but I do know that if I owned a business, I would want employees with college degrees. Nowadays, a college education is necessary because mostly everyone in America has a chance to get it. I guess it has just become a standard here. More people are graduating High School and College than before, so a college degree isn’t what it was before. From what I see, it’s considered to be less because it’s more common.

The current economy might effect the immigration because since there are so many Americans that are unemployed, they might take the only jobs available- jobs that in a good economy would be taken by immigrants. I don’t think because of the state of our economy that people will cease to immigrate here. Basically the whole world is experiencing economic troubles and immigrating here might still be the better option for people.

I don’t know if the last question could be answered. The immigration regulations make sense according to their time period. Although I don’t think that restricting people from specific countries was right, some sorts of restrictions on immigration were necessary.

Can’t wait to read the rest of the responses!

We were shown a chart similar to that on page 5 of the introduction at the Seminar 2 Macaulay event before school opened, except the statistics were more recent (somewhere from 2000 to 2009). Now the statistics of percentage of foreign born in NYC is probably in the 50’s or above. On a different note, I found it interesting how the early flows of immigration were generally dominated by groups or pairs of two. First came the Italians and European Jews, and then the Irish and Germans. But since there, there hasn’t been one or two groups that dominated like this. It makes sense though. Since today’s modes of transportation are much easier and more efficient than before, it’s only reasonable to expect people from all over to be coming here. Then one might have had to travel to NY with one’s entire family, whereas today, you can come to NYC by yourself just to study for a semester. It’s a good thing that there is a larger diversity of immigrants instead of huge dominant flows of one or two groups of people. This makes NYC that much better and unique.

As to the question of whether prerequisites of higher education are a good thing, I’d have to agree with Mayha and say that it has its pros and cons. It’s good in that it raises NYC’s standards and produces many more skilled people. But in certain areas, it becomes too extraneous. To be a great cook, do you really need a degree from a fancy Cooking and Culinary School? Yes it helps, but when there are great people out there being denied a job because they lack a specialized degree of some sort, it just seem like too much. Though these are my views, I recognize the need and reasons for which this is the case. We have such a large number of people in the city, and so many of them are very well educated. How is a person who is hiring to distinguish between two well-qualified people? The extra schooling is not so much of a prerequisite as it is a necessity for the applicants themselves to stand out. Yes, this leads to a cycle of more people making it more difficult to “stand out,” but that also raises the standards of the society as a whole.

Though I do think the recession has an impact on those who are thinking of coming in, I know that immigrants will be coming in despite harsh times. The fact of the matter is that no matter how bad America or NYC is doing, we’re still better than many parts of the world in terms of job availability and economic stability. Only one out of every so many persons who are seriously thinking of moving to NY may actually change his/her mind if NYC takes a major economical hit, but the rest will still come.

Personally I cannot say which I think is the best because I’m not familiar with the different sides of the story/argument, but I like the way it is now because it works. I will say that I think it’d perhaps be better for many people if it took less time for their close relatives to come. Why do they have to wait so many years? If you’re a citizen, you shouldn’t have to wait more than 2 or 3 years (and even that may sound too long) for your close blood relative to come and move into your house. But as I’ve said, I can’t really say much on this because I’m not too familiar with how all this works.

The reading discussed a lot about the pull factors of immigration into the U.S. One of the most commonly known reasons was “the quest of liberty and freedom” that most immigrants could not find in their country due to political or religious prosecution.

However, I find the immigration laws that were passed in the 20th centuries such as Immigration Act of 1990 and Diversity Visa Program in 1990 interesting. These immigration acts essentially increased the number of visa approvals and immigration quotas for different countries, in which encouraged more immigration movements; in a sense, the increased immigrants number was not only pulled by the immigrants’ seeking of an American dream, it was also caused by the pushed from US government with all these laws. Looking at them from the present, I see them as significant milestones in our history because they gave birth to more diverse and multi-ranged social classes immigrants to our country.

There also have been stories about immigrants who hold well paying occupations as doctor, engineer and scientist before they moved over here. Because United States does not recognize their college certificate, or they were not fluent in English, they were stuck with jobs as cab drivers or deli owners. Sadly to say, there are tons of immigrants who came over and do not speak a word of English; they basically lived in a crummy neighborhood for 60 years and die in the same neighborhood after 60 years.

So, I do not think the prerequisites of college education are necessary to make a person successful but they’re helpful to improve the quality of the community. Take example: to have a strong economy= have educated citizens like Singapore. Living standard in Singapore is high because everyone (incl. parents and gov.) emphasizes on the quality of education. However, college degree is not necessary for a person to be successful. But, the “network” that a person can gain from attending to college is differ from the “network” of another person who works in a mechanic store. The most important gained from higher education, other than knowledge of course, is mutual inter-relationship that will come in-handy in the future.

SPARK

Aside from the statistics, I was not as surprised with the material in this week’s reading as I was from what I learned in last week’s. When I was younger, I read the Dear America Book Series, and was disgusted by the accounts of squalor on the steamships and the humiliation suffered during medical inspections. What I was not familiar with was the statistics and regulations, such as the obligation of the steamship company to pay for the immigrants whom officials turned away.

Many bureaucratic laws have been imposed since the Second Wave of Immigration. Do you think they are warranted? If you were in charge of immigration into the U.S., what, if anything, would you change? Of course we’re not familiar with the technicalities of immigration law, but for example, do you think it is right to have a waiting period of nine years for a Green Card? Would you change the number of immigrants allowed into the country?

As an average American, what is your opinion of immigrants and their affect on the job market? Considering that the current wave of immigrants boasts mostly skilled workers (when a person who drives a taxi may hold a medical degree), do you worry about job security, for yourself or for your children? Or do you believe that immigrants are filling the niche and performing menial labor that the average American would not wish to do? Do you feel that America, as a host country to both legal and illegal immigrants, is obligated to pay for education and health care for the members of its society who are not here legally? How do you feel about paying taxes to support those who do not?

Based on what many others have said, I have been quite aware of how the education level of many of the second and third wave immigrants is surprisingly low. Similar to how Peter mentioned his grandparents did not have the highest level of education, neither did my father. After having to escape communist Romania with only a 10th grade education level, it was only until much later on in his life that he was able to finally get a college and graduate school degree, and now he is even working on getting his PhD. But like many others commented, having a college degree these days often isn’t even enough. Even if I were to have a low-level job, I would certainly want my employees having more than just a high school diploma, and I would be more inclined to hire someone if they had more than just a college degree. Kazi mentioned, to be a great cook, do you really need a fancy degree from a culinary institute? Probably not, and I can certainly verify that some of the best meals I have ever had were from people who simply had a knack for cooking- but if I were to have a restaurant, I would be far more impressed by those who did have a reputable education at a culinary institute. It’s sad that the economy has become some competitive in all fields, and even if you are already good at something, a lot of the time you have to go through hours and thousands of dollars worth of school to be able to get hired, but that’s something that is unlikely to change in the future. If anything, it will only get more rigorous. Unless it’s via word of mouth, it’s pretty unlikely someone will get hired simply based on what they have experienced in the outside world, or claiming that they have a good work ethic.
Immigration into America is unlikely to slow down any time soon. Despite the low level of jobs we have available and the massive amounts of people that have been getting laid off, people still find solace in America. A lot of the times, what is offered here (despite seemingly terrible for many of us), can be many opened doors for those who have experienced horrors in their home countries. If I were to be in charge of immigration, I think I would stop it for a certain amount of time. I would have our borders tightened for only a few months- simply to curtain the amount of money that goes into people who aren’t citizens and put the money towards funding for those who are citizens and residents of the US. That way, we would be able to focus and prioritize- then we could open up our borders once again.
I don’t think that immigrants have the biggest effect on the job market. For instance, both my parents are immigrants and have respectable jobs working in the education system. I don’t worry about my security at all in terms of getting a job, because I have grown up in a world where competition isn’t only encouraged, but it is the norm and should be expected. It sucks (for lack of better words) but that’s just how it is! And I hadn’t realized that there really aren’t that many illegal immigrants in NYC as there are in other parts of the country, so I haven’t exactly seen first hand how they have “snatched” up a lot of jobs, so I can’t really have an opinion on that.

After last week’s reading and discussion, I was curious why so many people immigrate to America. America is supposed to be this symbol of a better life, but I felt like there has to be something more than that. Last week, Professor Lobel said that many immigrants in the past came because of economic problems, religious persecution, or political problems. But today is a different story. According to this week’s reading, many immigrants today come just because they can. I thought that was a very interesting point. Why would you leave your home just because you can? Sure, I left Alabama just because I could, but in my mind moving from another country seems a lot more difficult than moving from another state.

In response to Peter, I think today’s education requirements are a shame. Even though I strive to do well in school, I really don’t enjoy school at all. I just want to graduate and start my career! I’ve been ready for years, but I have to waste time getting a master’s degree and license just to be a social worker. As others have pointed out, education requirements have increased because the opportunity to go to college has increased. While I think it’s a good thing that more people have the opportunity to go to college now, I think it’s unfortunate for people who don’t want to spend years studying before they can start their career. I always thought experience was the best teacher, anyway.

I don’t think the recession will affect immigration at all. The economy fluctuates constantly, but immigration is a constant factor. The Great Depression hurt the country more than the current recession, but it didn’t hurt immigration.

I can’t say which set of immigration regulations makes the most sense, because they were all designed to address problems that arose with their respective waves of immigration. Today’s regulations are definitely the most complicated. It’s easier to get in the country, but harder to stay in the country.

In response to Michal, I know some people worry that immigrants are going to take all the jobs but I don’t think that’s true. Immigration has been a constant factor in America since its discovery, and immigration is not a major source of job loss. Outsourcing and technology pose a greater risk.

Is America obligated to pay for education and health care for illegal immigrants? Wow, that is a loaded question. I can definitely say yes the government should provide education for everyone in the country, including illegal immigrants. I don’t think it’s right to deny children education, even if they entered the country illegally. Those children didn’t choose to break the law. Health care, on the other hand, is a touchier subject. Currently, the government doesn’t even provide health care for all American citizens. I don’t even know what’s going on with health care reform right now because it’s so confusing, but I don’t think anyone should be denied medical attention. However, medical attention is a lot different from health care. Honestly, I can’t answer that question.

And I’m probably going to be in the minority here, but I don’t mind paying taxes at all. I want to support the services the government provides, even if I don’t need them or benefit from them. If you want services, you have to be willing to pay taxes. Since I don’t think illegal immigration is such a scary problem, I don’t care that much if my tax dollars support illegal immigrants.

In response to Peter’s question of the worth of new higher schooling requirements, I view this changing standard mostly with contempt. I totally agree with Kazi on this issue. In some cases, years and years of heavy studying is required for the profession the student is pursuing. For example, it is unreasonable to become a doctor without going to medical school. But I think in our current society, people are totally looked at differently if they do not go to college.
A lot of my friends are paying hundreds of thousands to study at fancy art schools, and I often wonder if, for the careers in fashion and design that they are pursuing, an internship or apprenticeship wouldn’t be more beneficial. After learning the basics in a field like this, why pay thousands of dollars for a piece of paper, when you can gain more valuable experience and skills out in the real world?? Even though one can get educated through means other than extensive college courses, if one does not physically HAVE a degree, it is likely that it will be difficult for them to find a job sometime in the future. I guarantee the kid who opted out of college and spent years reading his own books, taking specific design classes, and working under a designer knows more than the kid who spend 200 grand to party and skip class at SVA. (And yet, the latter kid’s resume might land him the job.)
In terms of immigration, I don’t think the economy will change the amount of immigrants too dramatically. Though this is a total guess because I know nothing of the facts or statistics, I think that there are many reasons why people come to the United States. It will be harder for these people to find jobs, sure- it’s hard for legal workers to be employed in this economy, but many people have it worse in their homeland than being unemployed and safe in America.
I don’t think I have any right to say what I think the immigration rules should be. The restrictions and guidelines put in place, even if they seem a little intense, were created by people a lot more educated on the matter than I am. That being said, I do think it is important to have some restrictions and requirements before letting immigrants become full citizens of the US.

Both the introductio and chapter one had great points that the author made. I really liked how Foner established the fact that she couldn’t talk about all of the issues that immigrants faced, because that would have called for an extensive number of volumes to her book, instead of just one. Anyway, the statistics she mentioned ande showed with tables were very eye opening and interesting. Historically it makes more sense now to see that the immigration demographic changed from irish and german in the first wave, to italian European Jewish in the second wave, to the third wave, which is mostly composed of people from the carribbean.

As far as the immigration regulations are concerned, it only makes sense that these regulations existed because they corresponded with the specific time period. The first wave there were very few, if at all any immigration standards. But as Professor Lobel mentioned, the U.S. created regulations only after problems had occured. The U.S. government learned from the first wave that no regulations were a problem: There was overpopulation, people living in overcrowded tenaments, people coming overseas with diseases, etc… Regulations had to be established for the imcoming immigrants in the second wave so that these problems could be avoided. There were many reasons why immigrants came to America, because no matter how hard life here may have been, back home it was far worse. Today, we see a much more diverse immigrant population because there are more modes of transportation, which would lead to a diverse demographic.

I think that college/grad school prerequisits are neither a good thing or a bad thing. It is unfortunate for an immigrant with a family struggling to get a college education in order to make more money for his/her family. Although the standard for higher education may raise America’s standards in the workplace, there are many jobs out there that pay well that do require some kind of a degree, but doesn’t necessarily need one, which i tihnk is unfair. Two job applicants are applying for a position and the one with the college degree will get the job, when for all we know the one without the degree could do a better job.

I don’t think that the current economic situation the U.S. is in will effect immigrants. If i was the owner of a company i would rather hire an illegal immigrant rather an a U.S. citizen because i wouldn’t have to pay them as much, and i understand that they are probably in a far worse situation than unemployed U.S. citizens, but of course this all depends on the skill requirements of the job title. If, for example i needed someone with a B.A. then i would end up hiring someone that is here legally with an education.

Like a lot of people mentioned in their post, the part of the reading that I took the most out of were the charts detailing the numbers and percentages of immigrants of various nationalities in the past several decades. I think everybody understands that, yes, a lot of people immigrated to NYC in the early 20th century and continue to do so today, but I think the charts give more life and meaning to this general statement.

On the topic of education, I would first like to mention that, like Peter said about his grandparents, neither of my two grandparents, who immigrated here from Ireland, had an education past the sixth grade, yet they came to America with not much more than their work ethic, and were able to work their way up and find success. My grandfather owned a bar, my grandmother owned a laundromat, and together, they were eventually able to buy the house I live in today and raise 5 kids in it. Answering Peter’s question about prerequisites of college/grad school education and if we think they’re good, I wouldn’t label them as either good or bad, rather, I’ll just say that I would not take them out of place if I could. Rachel said in her post that she thinks school is a boring waste of time, and that she’s been “ready for years” to be a social worker, but must get a degree and license first. This means that if a degree and license weren’t necessary, Rachel would attempt to become a social worker today. However, if this were the case, then nine other people who would label themselves as “ready to become a social worker” would also go for the position of social worker today, too. This would present a problem: 10 people all want to become social workers, so who should get the job? Enter the dreaded Master’s degree and license. The point I’m trying to make is that I believe that the prerequisites of a college degree are necessary because without them, everyone would want to become a social worker or pharmacist today, and a college education can be used as a tool to weed through all the people who want real professions and those who actually deserve them.

Peter also asked which immigration regulations we thought made the most sense. I would say the third and current regulation system makes the most sense. I am not saying that this is a necessarily good system, but I believe it is better suited than the two that preceded it, despite the massive cons it has, such as some immigrants having to wait 9 years to be granted entry to the country.

Michal asked a lot of questions about immigrants and what we feel they should be provided with in America. I would first like to say that I do not worry about job security for me or my children. Though a large percentage of immigrants are made up of skilled workers, I do not think immigrants taking American jobs is a serious problem. Like Rachel said, immigration has never been a major source of job loss in America, and I don’t believe it ever will be.

Michal also asked if we believed America should be obliged to provide education and health care to illegal immigrants. I think that America should definitely provide education to illegal immigrants. Though this would take a chunk out of taxpayer’s dollars, I just think it’s completely unfair for illegal immigrant children to suffer a loss of education due to their parent’s decision. As far as health care goes, I would have to reluctantly say that I think America should also provide health care to illegal immigrants. A lot of people would say that illegal immigrants don’t deserve health care or it’s not fair that out tax dollars are paying their medical bills, but I think it’s too inhumane for America to turn our backs on those in need, even if those in need are illegal immigrants.

The readings truly made evident the sheer amount of change NYC went through during the first wave of immigration. While the short clip we saw in class attempted to relay the same information, I felt that the reading accomplished this more effectively. I wasn’t really able to comprehend the effect of this influx until I looked at the numbers in the reading.

Despite the majority of immigrants coming into the city being poorly educated, I have heard of the educational diversity among newer immigrants discussed in the second section of the reading. In response to Peter’s spark, I think that the inflation of degrees is very unfortunate. While I feel that a formal education is a good thing to have, the requirement places economic pressure on entire classes of individuals who cannot afford the cost of a graduate, or even undergraduate education. For example, I recently heard about the exorbitant prices of medical schools, and the effects it has on med students who resultantly cannot afford to even enter their desired career field. While I do believe that doctors should be thoroughly educated, the requirements to “make it” in America ultimately place a large economic burden on people who want the jobs perhaps more than those who can afford to get them.

The effect of the current economy on immigrants has not really been talked about in the news as much as the effect of immigrants on the economy. I would think that a bad economy would result in even stronger immigrant employment because of its economic efficiency.

The three different types of regulation for the three different waves of immigration doesn’t really make sense to me, unless the government is attempting to mold these restrictions based on the types of immigrants coming in. I don’t see why immigrants should be allowed into the country to easily if attaining citizenship would take so long. Shouldn’t citizenship and arrival be treated equally? I think spreading diversity across the nation is a good thing, and streamlining immigration would help create a sort of equilibrium, I think. I could totally be wrong.

I feel that given the capitalist system on which our nation’s economy works, the issue with taxes paid on behalf of the untaxed can unnecessarily burden those who can’t afford to see their taxes going to services that don’t benefit them. I know people who do not pay taxes, and I know people who do, and they both have issues with the system. I think it’s important to consideProxy-Connection: keep-alive
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the history of this nation as putting an emphasis on the ability within the individual to “make it.” It may not be a true notion, but it is the notion under which we subscribe as Americans. Until this ideal changes, people will not be happy with paying taxes for those who do not pay taxes themselves. I personally wish I could benefit for some of the programs for which I do not qualify, but seeing as sometimes these programs really do help individuals a lot, they’re worth investing my money into.

Well Immigration is always a fascinating and complicated issue. This weeks readings were fairly interesting and aroused my curiosities. It is always fascinating to see the change in flux of ethnicities that migrated at different periods. As Peter noted it is most peculiar to see such a dramatic decrease among Italian immigration post 1965 than any other group. To have three waves of entirely different groups migrating is fascinating as is the increase in diversity in each wave. It is amazing to think about how each wave came here. The horrors the earlier immigrants had to face are of course shocking. As the readings mentioned today these horror stories are a rare exception and are certainly not common but naturally are still frightening and awful. It is painful to think that these horror stories while rare today where the norm of immigration in the earlier waves. The scanning process of emigrants was interesting to read and jogged a memory of my relatives that has been passed down. One of my distant relative’s brother was not allowed out of Italy for he had a hump on his back. His sister was forced to depart without him. It is hard to comprehend fully the difficult process of immigration in the earlier years. It is disgusting at times to think about the fiery duel of illegal immigration. In my mind it is evident that immigration is the biggest source for continuation in any society and economy. Immigrants, who come here legally or illegally, excluding convicts, contribute dearly to our lives and are a pivotal force in life as we know it.

Education among immigrants was also an interesting thing to read about. How the earlier immigrants often had little to no education and were yet able to obtain jobs fairly easily as laborers is an interesting comparison to the educated immigrants of today who may face trouble of finding labor. In response to Peter’s query I believe education is in a sad state. It is become predominantly about appeasing teachers than gaining understanding. I do feel that the system we have today of needing a college degree in order to do any job is a completely flawed system. My grandparents did not receive college degrees either but made excellent workers. In fact my grandmother is still an accountant for a very successful landscaping and nursery business. It may sound foolish but at heart I believe in a meritocracy. I do not believe in a system that prides over a piece of paper that says were you spent your time and the letters or numbers you earned for completing who truly knows what assignment. I do love education though, for it sparks the curiosities of your mind, and opens it intellectually to infinite possible paths. But I do not love the fact that a diploma of any kind is more valued than any amount of talent, skill, or intelligence. But as always it is interesting to note the differences over time in: immigration, regulation, laws, and opinions of these matters.

I liked that this chapter covered immigrant groups from all over the country with numbers comparing and contrasting how many there were a few years ago and how may there are
now. However, I have to agree with Anna—I didn’t like this reading as much as last week’s because this week’s was more like a paper filled with facts, whilst the other had descriptions so as to make us feel like we are in the moment.

I found it interesting that illegal immigrants were included in this chapter. After discussing this subject in political science class last semester, I feel that, in response to Michal’s question, America is not obligated to pay for education for someone who came to the country illegally. Knowing that I have family in Bangladesh waiting over 11 years to come to America the legal way, while people are easily coming in illegally in less than half the time does get me aggravated. However, I don’t think that grudge should be held against children who are born in the United States to illegal immigrants; I feel that they should have the same rights as any other US Citizen because they did not have a say in the matter. As we concluded in the political science seminar and I conclude again, this is a very difficult issue to attack.

In response to Peter’s second question, I think that the economy will cause immigration to decline just a tad. However, because everyone has such glorified thoughts of America, they will still choose to move here because “America will always hold a better life for them than where they are coming from (note of sarcasm).” I might sound a bit mean when saying this because I have heard relatives who were beyond well-off in Bangladesh come to NY to live the “good life” and then complain on a daily note about how hard it is to survive here and how poor they are now. Coming in with the assumption that their American relatives have it easy, they learn the hard way that immigrants’ lives are not that simple, especially if they are first or second generation immigrants.

Lastly, I have to agree with Peter: I thought the taking a picture in front of the refrigerator was an entertaining thought-It reminded me of my visit to Bangladesh where my cousins wouldn’t leave food in the refrigerator for too long in fear that they will rot when the current goes away (which it does about 2 to 3 time a day =/ )

At first, the fact that there were three distinct waves of immigration and how each one was completely different from the first was fascinating. Three groups with dramatically increasing diversity, all seemingly unrelated to the first seemed so improbable that it was incredible. However I feel that if this article had included the historical viewpoint of their home countries, then it would have been more clear. Just as we read last week, the thrill of the new country is rarely the only reason people leave their homes.

As far as the importance of a diploma, it is unfortunate that a piece of paper can get you a good job regardless of your ability, but jobs are becoming more and more specialized now. It isn’t just doctors, there’s neuro surgeons, oncologists, cardiologists, urologists, etc… so just “knowing your stuff” really isn’t good enough anymore. I suppose that doesn’t apply to every career, but for the most part we learn new things everyday, and school is the best place to transfer that knowledge.

With immigration, there’s never been one way of dealing with it that really worked. I think it’s pretty obvious to say that our system now is flawed, but criticism isn’t worth a whole lot when you aren’t helping come up with a plan. The problem is, it’s one of the most complex issues we face as a nation. The way we dealt with the first wave was obviously never going to work, and by the second wave our regulations, as peter said, were counter productive. Now those unfair regulations are catching up with us, and we’re swamped with illegal immigrants. So there needs to be a middle ground, and we’re on our way, but it seems to be a slow torturous journey.

I would like to start out with agreeing with Rachel. I mean just because you have the ability to move to a different place isn’t a good reason to just pack up your things and go. I mean my family and I are moving this week but we are moving to a bigger nicer house (No apartment anymore D=) with a balcony =D Oh yeahs but we are doing it because our apartment is small and too expensive. Also my grandmother gave up being a stylist and owning her own beauty salon to come to America and be a maid.

I think for regulations to be introduced between the second and third was a good thing. I for one don’t really promote illegal unless necessary, its only because of my overwhelming guilt when I do something bad. D=. I also agree with Lubna’s point. My family came legally but I know people who do some pretty low illegal stuff (Not going to say what to protect the innocent…kind of…) and they are illegal immigrants. I mean its wrong to literally steal from people who come and do things the right way.

In response to Peter’s question, I dont know what to think. I mean my dad didnt go to school but he is an electrician as opposed to my mom who finished high school and she is a janitor. This day and age you need a higher education to “get” the job but you can have all the education in the world but you still may not get the job. I think that you should get the education necessary for you and that varies from person to person. My dad may not love school but I rather enjoy it xD

I liked reading this chapter mainly because it compares the three distinct views of immigration to New york as well as mentioned immigration to los angeles, in a short sweet way. I think with my ethnic background (salvadorean/japanese) I should be on the west coast xD but Im glad I was born in New york city. There are always opportunities and I am never worried about not getting a job especially here in New york city, I guess that would be a problem in a small town but not here in New York City. =D

Chapter 1 and the introduction were interesting – at times. They both presented some very surprising yet realistic facts. Being a recent immigrant myself, there were a lot of scenarios mentioned that I could relate to. Even though the readings’ most recent statistics were from 1998, all the situations still stand true for the most part (especially since we are still in the same wave of immigration). People immigrate today to escape their homelands for the same reasons: political oppression, financial difficulties etc. They see America as the land of hope and opportunity and a way to not only get away from their problems, but also solve them.

I was comparing the stats mentioned in the readings to the stats presented in Joe Salvo’s presentation (yes, I took notes) and some of the stats are same for the most part. Dominicans had the highest ‘foreign-born residents’ in NYC, both in 1998 and in 2009. In 1998, China, Jamaica and Italy followed D.R. whereas in 2009, Jamaicans, Chinese and Guyanese followed D.R.

The ‘old’ immigrants brought diversity to NYC not only in terms of their race, but also their education and qualifications. The ‘new’ immigrants follow the same pattern where some immigrants are professionals and engineers and others are low skilled and poorly educated.

Progress can be seen within with the strict immigration laws. While giving visas nowadays, embassy officers look for legal documents as well as incentives that the person being granted a visa will go back to his/her home country. Of course, this doesn’t always work because people see the opportunity America holds and overstay illegally.

Overall, I’ve noticed, that immigration patterns now and ten to twenty years ago were the same: the reasons why people came and the means by how they came.

To answer Peter’s question, I would have to say yes. Immigrants definitely played a big role in boosting the economy back then and now.
I agree with Lubna, I have so many relatives that moved on the United States to attain the “good life,” but all they can do is complain. My dad’s uncle just moved to New Jersey. Him and his wife were doctors with a flourishing practice in Mumbai. As soon as their family got the visa, they sold their practice, house and almost everything they owned. Three years later he is a security guard and his wife works at Walgreens because none of them could pass their license exam.
Now they realize that the struggle my parents had to face when they first moved here.

The articles for Monday’s reading, reinforced all the workings and history of New York’s immigration I had to learn in my Political Science back in high school. Though there are many different sides to the immigration regulations put in place before the second great wave.

Education has changed a lot since the first waves of immigrations, the Irish and German wave, most of them we not educated past what we would call grade school, the second wave varied very little, yet these families ultimately lead to the transformation of New York’s political, social and education infrastructure. They are also some of the city’s most influential forces in modern day legislation. Look at some of the names in the City’s top positions, a large amount are certainly foreign names, many noticeably Irish, German and Italian names.

I do see that this characteristics of the first and second waves might not ever be replicated again, while those waves were made up of usually one or two ethnic groups, as chapter two states, no more than 5% of immigrants have come in recent times from one country, the new wave of immigrants is very different from others in its origins, most immigration before had come from Europe, but now they come from Asia(and surrounding territories), the Caribbean(where I come from), and South America!

As i write this I’m watching Family Guy’s episode on immigration. It offers both perspectives on the problems and benefits to immigrants.

I agree with Anna that this week’s reading contained a lot of facts. I think they made the reading go by faster because there were quite a few numbers between the ideas of the text. More relevant benefits of the statistics are they showed that difference between the amount of immigrants from different countries and the level of education among immigrants of the second and third wave. One more thing, I felt these statistics helped me understand how little diversity there was in New York before, during, and after the first wave.

I was somewhat aware that many immigrants are well educated; however, I thought that they did not outnumber the uneducated immigrants. Finding out that the educated come to the States made me wonder what their reasons were. I appreciate that the author provided background information of the political and economic histories for the countries such as Jamaica, China, and the Dominican Republic. But I, like everyone else, noticed the reasons became less about external factors and more about personal preference. I do not think that reason is odd. The reason sounds like coming to America became a rite of passage, probably to adulthood or independence. To me, coming to America is like going away for College or moving from your parents’ house. In the text, the author included the following excerpt from the second wave, ” ‘Going to America has become so popular
recently,…,that young men feel almost ashamed if they have not been overseas at least once…’ ”

I received some insight from everyone’s answers to the education question. For example, I did not know that immigrants certificates were not accepted by the government. To be honest, I never tried to find out the reason for the underemployment among educated immigrants. In regards to the education requirements for someone who is not in that situation, I think they are necessary requirements mostly to weed out the better candidates for a position. There is a way out of burdening oneself with
the extra expense of college, but it requires loyalty to a company. I’ve heard several times that someone can get their company to pay for the higher degree because at the end of the day an advance degree means you are more knowledgeable about your
field.

Of the three waves of immigration I would choose this one because of transportation and the application process. With airplanes as the method of transportation there are more entry points in the States. I know that the major cities will still attract the most immigrants but now the immigrant population of other states have a chance to grow. I feel the questions for the application process for a visa is thorough in that it checks for the probability a person will return home. About the waiting period for a green card, while I don’t think it’s right because that’s just a long time.

The introduction and chapter 1 were both really interesting. I like the way the writer used many facts in the two chapters. I can definitely see the way the writer writes that most immigrants today come here for personal preference but I believe there is still a lot to do with the opportunities here and the overall freedom. In many Caribbean nations, whether or not you are educated or have lots of money there are still pretty oppressive governments which still makes these people move here. Not to mention that lots of these nations, no matter how bad you may think about our healthcare system, don’t have the healthcare we have. As usual some people come to United States because staying in their home country would be worse, no matter how bad it is here. Here there is Welfare and Section 8. There are lots of governmental agencies to help the poor. And when educated people from other countries come here their education lots of times is not accepted as “good enough”. There are many people who were doctors in other countries who now work in retail because the amount of knowledge needed to get some of these professional jobs is really high and difficult to achieve, which is why many people come to this country for important medical procedures such as chemotherapy. The United States is still seen as an improvement for lots of people in other countries especially Latin America and Haiti. Illegal immigrants are also coming to the United States illegally because it is so difficult to get the green card. There are people who have been waiting years for the application for a green card to get accepted and it just seems easier to come illegally. Obviously coming illegally is not the right answer but I believe that it says something about our policies pertaining to immigrants and the granting of their green cards which is something we need to fix if we ever expect to fix our illegal immigrant problem.