THE PEOPLING OF NEW YORK: MHC @ Lehman

SPARK

In the chapter “Why They Came” the author did an okay job in showing how much the potato famine was West Ireland’s problem and not the British Empire’s problem. It is mentioned that Britain organized a famine relief agency that ended its activities in 1848 when the famine affected less areas. I think the author should have mentioned some of the agency’s efforts to control the famine. Including this information would only give a more detailed background, not remove the fact that the British Empire was unaware of how much the poverty worsened in the three counties. The excerpts from accounts members of the Roman Catholic Church describing the poverty in order to get assistance as well as landowners Palmerston and Gore Booth started sending their tenants to New York or Quebec in 1847 prove that the empire neglected these areas. Do you think that tenants from the counties should have received some sort of extended assistance or do you agree with Britain’s action? I understand Britain’s action to use resources for this situation in relatively worse situation that could occur elsewhere in the empire. However from natural disasters I have learned that it takes years for the location to recover. So I think that Britain should have brought back some assistance after a lot of people emigrated.
I liked that the author explained how economic benefits were more likely motive for the shipping of the tenants to America even though it ruined my opinion that the landlords were offering to cover traveling expenses because they were sympathetic. One thing I didn’t like was the table that showed the percentage of foreigners and natives in Five Points because I could not figure out how they got the numbers.
The purpose of “How They Lived” was to show how unfit the area was to be a residential area and to find the basis for the stories about Five Points. While the author described why the apartments were cramped, he mentioned the lack of privacy that the immigrants had. In said that the idea of privacy became more important the more they adopted American ideas. How is the idea of privacy a sign of improved living conditions? I know that a goal for everyone was and is to get their own place but I always saw the importance of achieving that goal was a person having a residence that someone else could take from them. I see privacy as something that comes with getting a better place, not as major factor in trying to get a better place. I was annoyed that the author reasoned that as the girls became more Americanized they would have more problems with the lack of privacy in their homes. Would girls growing up in situation where everyone around them has no privacy worry about a lack of privacy? He states that Italians and Irish immigrants lived in one room huts. I think they would have already figured out how to give people enough privacy since they are used to every place in the house being for everyone. Another interesting part of the chapter was the charts about the diversity of the Five Points. The charts were a reminder that New York was not always diverse and that neighborhoods go through transitional periods where the several ethnicities are in the same location.

I do agree with you Simone, that the author did an “okay” job of explaining how big of a problem the Potato Famine was in Ireland. The account was certainly detailed and vivid enough, but I also think, as you do, that it shouldn’t just have been a list of problems. After about the fourth page of reading how much everyone was dying, you do get the idea, but you also get annoyed that they’re not telling you anything else. I do think that moving people to the U.S. or Canada was a better idea, because along with food, water, and shelter, what these people really needed was a new beginning. I do think that the tenants should have received some extended assistance, but at the same time, I don’t think it was possible for the British Empire to financially provide enough adequate assistance to everyone. And you’re right, the author did mention a lot of statistics but I too am curious to find out where he/she got that information from. I’m not to sure the sources were reliable enough.

I’ve read about NYC’s tenement buildings before and the conditions never cease to shock me. It seems so surreal that people actually have lived like that. I share a room with my little sister and it’s not the biggest room in the world. I constantly feel like I don’t have enough space, but if this were a room in five points, a whole family would be living in this space. It’s just hard to fathom. Diseases ran rapidly

As far as the whole privacy thing goes, I think privacy is actually a sign of improved living conditions. While it might seem like a by-product of moving into a bigger and better house, you would be surprised to find out how many rich people move into the middle of nowhere in the name of privacy. If you ever go to towns like Armonk or Chappaqua, some of the richest towns around, you’ll find that in a lot of places, neighborhoods don’t exist in a lot of places. Ask the residents and they say, “I like my privacy.” And I think that no matter where you are, girls will always worry about privacy. 🙂

I think that the author did a pretty good job in describing the conditions during the Potato Famine in Ireland. Yes, there were pages and pages that revealed the tragedy, but I think that it was important for the author to write so much about it. The way that everything was described was intentional, I think, firstly to make the reader realize that, hey, these were real people, and secondly to emphasize how bad the conditions really were. Paying for the passage of the tenants to the United States and Canada was the right thing to do, even though the landlords might have profited from it in one way or another. However, I do think that the tenants that did leave Ireland could have received more assistance from the landlords and Britain in terms of food and clothing for the passage. I believe that maybe even giving each family a little money to start them off in their new life in a new place wouldn’t have hurt the landlords and Britain too much, either. The fact that the author included all kinds of statistics in the reading made it that much more realistic for me, so I think it was important.

The point Simone brought up about privacy is very interesting. To answer her question, the idea of privacy is a sign of improved living conditions because it means that the family can afford to live in a place where they can give and get privacy. However, I’m not so sure that privacy is very important when you are living in the conditions that they were living in. If these people moved to America to have a better life, their life in their home countries was probably worse, and if their conditions were worse than they most likely didn’t have so much privacy there either. And Simone is right, if a girl lived her whole life without “privacy,” she would most likely find a way to deal with it or just get used to it. Don’t get me wrong, I love having my privacy in my home and if I didn’t have it, I would probably make my family insane, but this is because I grew up with it and my parents can afford it. In fact, most girls today are used to having their privacy. But again, we’re talking about the times in which people couldn’t earn enough money to eat, was privacy really that big of an issue?

Yes Simone I too am curious about these sources and statistics. Some of it did seem a little off to me. I remember reading about immigration, the blight, the potato famine, and of course the infamous tenement houses. All of these details have been ingrained in my knowledge; having reviewed them each year in history class since the fourth grade. The British aid agencies seemed rather off to me too though. All of the primary sources from that time period are filled with disdain and loathing of the British. In fact many of the Irish accounts fully blame the British for the famine and blight. It is hard to imagine the aid accomplishing any significant relief.
Mayha I also entirely agree with you. The horrid details of both the famine and tenement houses were certainly described well. However in these portrayals both passages were written in a nonchalant almost droning manner. The repetitive details and words all came together to create a well conceived but redundant conception. However I suppose we certainly did get the “point.”
The disturbing details of the tenement houses, the rampant spread of disease, and the poverty of those times never cease to amaze me. My late great grandmother of 103 years recounted to us, her voyage to the button factory each day and her grueling 16-hour shifts. She recounted always feeling cramped at home, in the factory, and in transit. Her stories and the details of these passages horrified me and made me feel fortunate to be alive in today’s world. The total lack of privacy is almost impossible to imagine though.
It was indeed interesting to see the charts and differences in immigration from that period as compared to the immigration of today we saw in our seminar 2 common events. The United States but more specifically the New York area can be seen as a constantly transitional plain. Its residents and immigrants come in fluxes and waves that uniquely and necessarily shape their surroundings and their time period.

The author did more than enough to describe the horrifying living conditions that people went through in their daily lives in the Lansdowne estate in County Kerry, and many other parts of Ireland. Although the writer did go on for pages about the terrible living conditions, lack of food, job, money, etc, i think that was his point. The problems speak for themselves on why many Irish people left for Quebec and New York. One line that fascinated me the most was a comment the author made to the diary entries of Archdeacon O’Sullivan saying “The suffering of the living was almost as difficult to bear as the sight of the dead.” There were people literally lying on the street dead because of these living conditions! What i got from that diary post was that the people that were living were as good as dead. Places like these which were described usually take time to reconstruct so that people can actually live normal lives there, so i thought that the decision to leave to America and Canada was the only alternative. I too think that Britain could have given more assistance to the travelers in terms of food and clothing for the long journey across the Atlantic. It was Britain’s responsibility however to give more considering the fact that they still ruled over Ireland.

The idea of privacy is a key signal in improving living conditions. The way the author described the tenement housing in Five Points was impossible to believe. I think that with privacy comes more room. More rooms means a larger living space which people can assume means improved living conditions. I agree with Anna that privacy was not a luxury for the tenements. They were lucky enough to have what they had considering their financial situations. Agreeing with both Simone and Anna, i think that if you are used to living without privacy, which i assume these people were used to because their living conditions in their countries of origin were worse than that of their living conditions in the Five Points tenements, then privacy was definitely not an important issue. However, if these people came to America for a better life then i wouldn’t be surprised if privacy was an issue. They came to America for a change, and if they ended up in very similar living conditions as those of their homeland, then i can see why they would demand something better, more improved.

I don’t really question the validity of the author’s statistics, but I do agree with how redundant the chapter was. I found it interesting and disturbing to read the statistics of all the people who died in the potato famine. I did not learn many NEW things in these chapters (I believe many of us did learn of the famine and migration of the Irish in previous classes), but each time I review how terrible the situation was it amazes me.
For me, the most interesting thing to read in these chapters were the details of the tenement houses and spread of disease. It is wild to think about living in such horrible, cramped conditions. The chapters made me feel both fortunate and thankful, and sad.
In regards to the privacy question, I think that while girls would get used to having no privacy, it is only natural to desire and long for one’s own space. Though I’m sure the girls would be used to sharing and surviving in cramped quarters, that doesn’t mean they wouldn’t think constantly about having their own space. Horrible conditions and living situations do not change the fact that there are always girls who are self-concious or have other bodily issues. There must be some distinction between what they were forced to accept, and what any growing girl desires.

This is such a big contrast on what we were talking about in Class last tuesday. And As everyone said I dont know whether to depend on this numbers or the data. I believe that even in the reading it said that it may not be accurate. I think because Of the fact they were going about it in an archeological point. As mentioned in the readings, I mean things happen to disturb the materials. The readings these week were a lot more serious then the ones compared to last week especially since alot of them revolved around the potato famine in Ireland. I do think it was the right them to send the people to America or Canada. It would’ve been extremely hard to acquire all the food to feed a starving nation as well as give them all the money. It wouldve been difficult as well due to the fact that there was inadequate refrigeration so sending them away was the right thing to do. Although it got extremely overcrowded in the city.
Before reading I had never heard of five points per se. I mean I have been there but I just never knew that it was called five points ^^; And what was really bad was the fact of the over crowding. I could never live in such a place so over crowded. It would be nauseating. I think that privacy is a major step in how humans advance. The act of building a wall allows division and control. Without it, chaos comes.
Life as an immigrant is pretty hard on anyone. Going into an unknown and having someone tell you what to do, its pretty frightening and your willing to do anything to get more comfortable, so I think with such an influx of immigrants and with cunning landlords squeezing them dry for money and space, I think it created the conditions described in the readings.
Reading about the struggles of immigrants always reminds me how easy we have it. As my mom told us, “thank goodness you or me didnt have to come here on our own as your father did, at the age of seven-teen he came here to work and send money to his family, to support his family (due to father’s death). Im glad my situation well for me is better but about 100 years from now, people will recall the events of this age and say “How did people live like that”

“Why They Came” provided decent context for the following reading “How They Lived,” as it extensively explained the factors that contributed to the mass migration of impoverished Irish farmers during the mid-1800’s. I am surprised to have never heard of Five Points before, even though I was familiar with the stories about tenement housing in general. I figured that if this place was so notorious, I should have heard about it in Social Studies or English class!

In response to Simone’s spark question, I do believe that Britain should have done more to assist those moving to America, considering the fact that they were so destitute upon arrival and settlement. However, I honestly didn’t expect much from a nation that considered the inhabitants of its colonies subhuman beings. Britain was rolling in wealth during the 1800’s, so it’s not like it lacked the resources to help all of Ireland.

The notion of privacy as a sign of improved living conditions is relevant to the theme of mobility and progress aspired to by the people who immigrated to America for a better life. I think that while the people who moved to Five Points might have not cared too much for their own privacy, such a luxury might have been eventually contemplated as assimilation took place. America puts a premium on the “rugged individual,” who can get by on his/her own, so of course seeing others have jobs and provide for themselves may elucidate what might have before been seen as a foreign practice. I didn’t mind not sharing my room for a long time, until I met people who had their own rooms. After that, I wanted my own room 😛

I should add that the reading itself was very enlightening on the specific topic of Irish immigration during the 1800’s, which is something I haven’t read too much about before.

Similar to how everyone else commented- I found reading about the potato famine hard to digest. I have learned about the potato famine many years in history class- especially world history as it is a topic that has to do with the irish coming to america and their own homeland. This reading was especially graphic though, and painful to read when it went into such detail about the horrors that the people had to go through. I agree with Simone on how the British Empire should have intervened and not left Ireland to fend for themselves. In relation to modern times, the way that the world is joining together to help Haiti (even though there is so much more work to be done) is an ideal way of how the situation could have been handled, although our way of communicating with mass media and the internet certainly helps countries join forces to help impoverished ones that have been struck with famine and other natural disasters. Caroline is right about how Great Britain would not have been expected to help out though, the way that they viewed a lot of the other colonies they had would have been given to expect that they would not offer Ireland a helping hand when they needed it most.
I think that the idea of privacy is a sign of improved living conditions because it means that everyone gets their own space. It is often something that we (and especially myself) take for granted- the luxury of being able to sleep alone in my bed, get dressed without other people in the room, etc. but for those who lived in cramped quarters do not have that ability.The reason that it was seen as a better factor was because it is more than just privacy- when one has privacy they have better living conditions- so it is the type of thing that starts off small but really does mean quite a lot.
Learning about immigration and the conditions that many immigrants had to go through- from leaving their home country, to the dangerous travel abroad, to landing on the new country and starting over- is a very difficult thing. Both of my parents are immigrants and have often spoken to me about what it was like to adjust. Like Christian said, many of us are lucky to have not had to deal with the trouble and work that many immigrants had to deal with quite some years ago. I have been to the tenement museum a couple of times in my life and seen the tour, and each time it sparks a different emotion in me. Apartments which most would agree would only suit 2 or 3 people comfortably now were fitting 2 or 3 families- bedrooms were completely shared, people had to sleep on the floor- everything was cramped. It’s very hard to imagine and only makes me more grateful that I have never gone through something like that and will never have to.

I found the horrors highlighted in “Why They Came” to be particularly striking. I always have this vague idea of how bad the Irish Potato Famine was, but whenever I actually read these kinds of first-hand accounts it amazes me. Although the descriptions of the Famine and the mass emigration to the New World were somewhat redundant, I understand why many of the same points were stressed over and over again, because the things that these people endured really were terrible. I also found the role of the landlords in the mass emigration of Irish countrymen very interesting, specifically the dual economic and humanitarian motivations.

Both in “Why They Came” and in “How They Lived” it seemed there was an abundance of hyperbole in the first-hand accounts. People referred to the Five Points and its inhabitants as “the most wretched people on the face of the globe,” “the wickedest house on the wickedest street that ever existed,” “the most repulsive holes that ever a human being was forced to sleep in,” “the most sickening and pestilential stenches,” etc. This gives us some idea of how bad the living conditions really were that they warranted such fantastical statements.

I was also surprised by how slowly improvements for these immigrants came. When fire-escapes were finally mandated, they were only for certain types of buildings. When sewers were installed, only some houses were connected to them. I wonder how immigrants who were so unfortunate not to have these simple necessities thought of those immigrants lucky enough to have them.

It is heart breaking to read through the emaciated conditions of the Irishmen before and after they reach America. The reason that drove them to risk their lives to cross the Pacific Ocean, a journey that lasted around 60 days with unstable food supply, was to escape from the famine back home. I have never read a book that describe the harsh living conditions of the Irish during the famine as vivid as this reading; so, it was disbelieving to find out that the Irish had to endure starvation that lasted up to weeks, and sometimes months, as they waited for the new potatoes crops. Worst of all, the assertion “only about 6% during the famine year receive aids”, which I presume some sort of government assistance, was unacceptable. I think that the British should be more active, or at least show some effort, in providing help to the 3 Irish counties (Sligo, Cork and Kerry) as they were part of the British territory also. Without the British assistance, Irishmen lost faith in the mother nation and were left to die hopelessly.

However, for those who were lucky enough to leave their nation not only had to survive the journey traveling to America or Canada, but also to live with hope to endure the bad living standard in the new land. Personally, I cannot imagine squeezing myself into a “195 tenants inside 15 rooms” situation, and not to mention the “fake windows” in the room that didn’t allow air- circulation. The living standard was so poor to a point the tenants had to endure living without keeping up to the hygiene standard such as lack of bathrooms (*.*) But, I was most fascinated by the geography settlement of the Lower East Side immigrants. Most immigrants spread along the entire Lower East Side and only those who were “native”(American born) were willing moved out of their neighborhood.

There’s always a reason for migrating from your homeland to a foreign land. Most people wouldn’t leave their home unless they had to, and the same applies to the Irish. The famine pushed them out of their land. Both in “Why They Came” and “How They Lived,” we see this undeniable governmental negligence for those who went through the crisis. But I loved the gesture of Gore Booth, who made those touching efforts to make up for what the government did not do. And to answer Simone’s spark question, of course the British should have aided the Irish and other immigrants that suffered. But I’m not at all surprised that they didn’t. The British at that time were known to have been ruthless, and were nothing more than greedy money-pulling machines that only sought to gain.

The contents of “How They Lived” were not the surprising because I have read about such poor conditions before in History and English classes. Nevertheless, the details were as depressing as they were the first time I read about them. The hideous odor, lack of privacy and space, and unsanitary conditions associated with the way they lived is difficult to take in. Although I’ve known about the cramped apartments and horrible living conditions that existed in Manhattan during the Pre-Civil War time ever since Junior High School, the first time I heard about the Five Points was in my senior year at Bronx Science.

The story focuses on the Irish immigrants, but the conditions were not unique to just them. Immigrants have always lived in the worst conditions compared to those who were already settled for some time. That’s just the way things turn out. However, that shouldn’t be the case. The government should have done something to help out the immigrants. The government should have addressed the horrible heating and filthy housing. I was shocked to read that a “few froze to death.” How cold must it have been for them to freeze to death? It was simply inhumane for those who were better off to have neglected and allowed for such conditions to exist.

“Why They Came” is a chapter filled with gruesome details and descriptions of the horrors of the Potato Famine and the effects it had on the Irish. With the details of rotting bodies on the streets and children eating a dead pig to stay alive, the reading of this chapter while eating was a very bad idea [I ended up not finishing my pasta =( ]. I’d have to say that though this chapter is jam-packed with all sorts of statistics and quotes from that time period, I didn’t think the author needed to go on for so long for us to get the point. However, I do agree with Chris; she definitely did get my attention what with the demographic numbers and the numerous reasons why people from each country emigrated and how it was possible for them to immigrate to Canada and America. Despite all the dreadful details of people in rags and corpses, the part that got to me the most was the description of how mothers left their children (of all ages, including one-year-olds) behind and didn’t reunite with them for years—I found that to be so heartbreaking.
In reference to Simone’s question, I feel that the British actually did take a good number of steps in trying to help the tenants. It would have been wonderful if they were to support them in the new country for a number of weeks, rather than just for the journey there. However, I don’t think that is realistic or even financially possible (as Mayha mentions).
“They are the most repulsive holes that ever a human being was forced to sleep in.” I thought this was the best way to summarize the conditions described in this chapter. After reading “How They Lived,” I feel like no one has the right to complain about how small or uncomfortable his or her house/apartment is. We’ve all heard of the terrible living conditions of tenements, but this chapter answers every possible question we might have about these buildings. I’m surprised that many people were actually able to cope with those conditions and survive in those tenements. I’ve always envied people who have walk-in closets and a bathroom of their own, but right now I feel blessed to have my own room…and access to a Laundromat.
In response to Simone’s question, I actually don’t think privacy has anything to do with improved living conditions. I feel privacy was not really the issue for residents of the tenements; rather, it was their hygiene. If these people had toilets and bathtubs and cleaner streets and fresh air, they wouldn’t have suffered half as much as they actually did. Sure, privacy would definitely be a plus, but it is not a necessity (during that time period, under those circumstances).

The account of the life of the Irish settlers in “Why They Came” was both heart-rendering and thought-provoking. Thankfully, it is difficult for us to imagine the plight of the immigrants as they were crammed in those deplorable conditions, first on the ships, and then in the tenements. Yet the question which arises in both “Why They Came” and “How They Lived” is a question of responsibility: who was to be blamed for this squalor? Those who were starving were shipped off to a foreign country, while their former landowner’s wiped their hands of them and congratulated themselves on getting rid of an expenditure, as the text implied. There were some men, such as Gore Booth, who went out of their way at their own expense to provide for their former tenants, but even their actions are examined and denounced as not having been enough.

Some critics imply that the U.S. was at fault for not providing for these immigrants who landed in their port with only the clothes on their backs. I think the real question is, why did the U.S. admit these immigrants through their ports in the first place? Why did our country passively agree to shelter thousands of people when that would mean taking the responsibility for them? I know that at some points in history, quotas on immigration were enforced, and only those who could support themselves, either through capital or craft, were admitted. But why did the U.S. have no restrictions before them? Harsh as this idea might initially seem, I hardly think overpopulation benefited either the U.S. or the new immigrants, when the sheer number of immigrants limited job opportunities and enforced crowding and subsequent squalor. If fewer immigrants had been admitted, the standard of living for those fortunate enough to gain entry would have been elevated.

The second text, “How They Lived,” is frightening in terms of its applicability to today’s times. Even today, there are rumors of Asian immigrants crowding into Chinatown, often only having enough money to rent rooms at a nightly rate. The only difference is that the living condition of the immigrants during the antebellum period was well-documented and well-known, while the current situation is not.

In terms of privacy, perhaps the more desperate people’s situations are, the less they worry about privacy. Once they are able to stop worrying about where their next meal will come from, then they can worry about their own personal space. One might even say that this makes privacy a worry of leisure.

Firstly, I have to apologize for the tardiness of my response, last time I checked there was no page for the blog, then I had a 5 hour drive to the city and… well here we are. I am a little glad, however, because it has afforded me the opportunity to respond after this rather interesting point about the fault and responsibility of this tragedy, made by Michal. uhh… the interesting point was made by Michal, not the tragedy. Anyways, it’s pretty clear that the United States has often been troubled when facing a crossroads between personal responsibility and responsibility to the world. They fancy themselves the “World’s Protectors” and it tends to put them in a whole lot of trouble. While I hardly think overpopulation was an issue at that point in the nation’s history, the Irish people’s reluctance to spread across the country, as it is with every group of people in this country, certainly caused problems in living and working conditions. These horrid conditions, in Ireland and the United States, were the focus of the reading, and it was an intense focus. Redundant would probably be the proper word to describe it, but it really was necessary. As Ivan did a good job of explaining: the problems are made to speak for themselves. Still, I don’t think the British are really to be held completely responsible, although as usual they are not without fault. It was a very “out of sight, out of mind” plan, but to expect them to carry a crippled nation on their back through this crisis is exceedingly unrealistic. Also, it wasn’t a forced migration which, as anybody with a basic historical knowledge knows, the British Empire was not opposed to. It could really be assumed that the people leaving knew the risks. The conditions described in the tenements were horrifying, but wouldn’t you choose that over death?

On privacy, I feel as though this is another one of the many luxuries we take for granted. Sure, we all love some R&R but for these immigrants death and disease was an ever present danger in the workplace and at home, so I really hope their priorities are in order enough that they wouldn’t be worrying about privacy. As those conditions improve they have the luxury to worry about things like privacy. So, privacy is a sign of improved living conditions.

Like a lot of people said, I think the author did too well of a job explaining the conditions of the Irish Potato famine. I agree with Mayha and Simone in that the long description was too descriptive and detailed, but also with Anna in that the author probably had a purpose for the long and vivid description: for the readers to believe his writing. To answer Simone’s first question, I think that it would have been impossible for the British Empire to provide aid for all the tenants. It was a good move for them to migrate the tenants from Ireland to either the United States or Canada to give them a new opportunity and a new start.

When I read about the immigrants in New York City in 11th grade U.S. history, I wasn’t surprised at all because the village I grew up in had several buildings where people lived when they first moved into the state (Punjab in this case). They started their new life from those little one-bedroom apartments where their whole family of ten lived. As they acquired success and moved into a bigger/better place, just like the tenants, it showed success and “improved living conditions.”

In terms of privacy, I think that’s more of a personal term; depends how one defines it. Even though I have my own room, I never quite have privacy because no one in my house knocks before entering my room and since I have a huge dresser, every morning, as my parents and brother wake up one by one, they all can be found in my room either getting ready or drinking tea while I’m sleeping. I absolutely agree with Anna in that we’re talking about times where people couldn’t earn enough to provide food for their family privacy should really not that big of an issue and also that girls never get enough privacy 😉

Well, I’m officially horrified now. Unlike most of my classmates, I didn’t really learn about the Irish potato famine or tenements in school. So, a lot of this information is new to me. Despite the author’s detailed descriptions, I still can’t imagine these conditions. The thing that saddened me the most was that the Irish left their home for a better life, but the conditions in New York City were just as bad as in Ireland. It’s like there was no point in leaving, like they weathered that horrible trans-Atlantic trip for nothing. I’d like to visit one of these old tenement buildings if they still exist. Do people live in them now? I would hate to live in a building that used to be filled with so much human suffering.

In response to Simone, while I think Britain should have provided more aid to Ireland, I know it’s not realistic. Britain’s attitude at the time was that of an empire, aka completely self-serving. They would not have spent the time, effort, or resources to adequately help out. But I don’t think shipping the dying Irish to America and Canada was the best solution. Why didn’t Britain just provide Ireland with food?

I think privacy is indicative of an improvement in living conditions. The more space you can afford, the more privacy you are afforded. If you can afford your own apartment, you don’t need to share it with other families. Therefore, you gain more privacy. Privacy and improved living conditions go hand in hand. However, I agree with Simone that girls who grew up with no privacy would be used to it. I think all of the immigrants who are striving for a better life would long for their privacy, but I don’t see the need to single girls out. I don’t think girls demand more privacy than boys do.

Before reading these excerpts, I did have a general understanding of the Irish potato famine, but I did not know too much about these events. Reading these chapters really taught me a lot more about the subject. As I read what the Irish people had to go through in their home land, my heart really went out to them. I did not think the author went too much into this or was too repetitive, as some people said. I think by writing so much about the potato famine, the reader really got a full account of what the Irish had to go through, and I think that by writing so much, the author was in a way doing them justice. In response to Simone’s question about Britian, I agree with Rachel the most, in that I do believe that Britian should have stepped in and lent a hand to Ireland, but I think that is an unreal thing to ask for, especially in the days of the potato famine. As I read Chapter 2 and saw what the Irish families who fled their home had to deal with in America, I felt for them even more. So many Irish families left Ireland, left their families and friends, because they believed that America would provide for them a better life, only to get here and be dumped in living conditions no better than what they had left behind. As far as the topic of privacy goes, I think that girls growing up in situation where everyone around them has no privacy would, in time, accept the lack of privacy, but no matter what, they will always long for privacy. If a girl lives in a packed tenement with zero privacy for 8 years, I don’t think she will acclimate to the lack of privacy to the point where she doesn’t want privacy. I think she will merely learn to live with it, as that is her only choice, while always longing for a space of her own.

P.S.

Sorry for posting so late

Just got home been out all day, at least the page’s up…

I had heard about the Irish Famines in two classes, my political science class and my English class, my Poli Sci class dealt with the mass immigration from Ireland during the 19th Century, and the English class about the state of Ireland after the famines were over, the fallout from the mass death and emigration of the Irish States.
The order of the Famine stories was a bit odd, so I’ll rather address them chronologically. The conditions of the tenants in the provinces of Sligo, Cork and Kerry, was well, pretty bad. In today’s society, one might see this in the Sub-Saharan parts of Africa where governments are weak and uncaring. But in 19th Century Ireland, part of the mighty British Empire, this was a sight too horrible to behold, so horrible that their Landlords, some for virtuous reasons and some for more personal financial gain, paid for tickets to send their tenants to Canada and the U.S. You know things are bad when you’re relocated to another country because things are so dire. So it was not a surprise when I read about the Five-Points district I had also previously known about, accounted for a large majority of the Irish Population in this less, yet severely impoverished community.
This raises a few questions, there was no real solid government in Ireland during the famines to help alleviate the problems that millions of Irish men, women and children went through, ranging from starvation to disease, Ireland was part of the British Empire, so why didn’t England do anything to help them? Though external research might show that initially, the British Prime Minister tried to help the poor Irish, but greed and mismanagement among the government quickly ended the temporary help that was available. The British then took to the practice of laissez faire, which led to the decimation of populations in Ireland. Why didn’t the nation of the United States aid in the plight of the Irish?
The Five-Points district, once known as the most dangerous place in the world, is of course the most likely place for these poor immigrants to settle in, as with mass immigration, the place of settlement is usually the cheapest places available and therefore, the most destitute place available. The squalor seen at Five-Points scared people from all over the world, to the point where it became a Tourist attraction, people paid to see the worst part of the world, and with the mantra of New York, Money, Money, Money! people charged them to see it.
The conditions in which the Five-Points residents lived were in many ways, worse than the conditions in the horrible conditions from which they came from. The “landlords” of the tenements in Five Points, were much more about efficiency than humanity. There were many problems in the tenements of the 1850’s, one of which was space, the normal cramped lifestyle of New Yorkers then, was magnified in the Five Points apartments that were not originally meant to house the huge amounts of people that lived there. A building meant for just a small family and business space was housed by up to two to three times the normal amount of people that a room could comfortably support (space-wise). Ventilation was another major concern, landlords did not provide their residents with the basic human need of proper ventilation, and therefore, many health problems arose from this problem, heat and Carbon dioxide poisoning were quite common in the Five Points district, not to mention the problems with poor building procedure and materials and the stench of the cesspools of human waste the inhabited the homes of Five Points.
Why did the government of New York not help? Was it because there was no financial gain to helping these poor immigrants? Many horrible moments of human history bring up these questions, why did no one help?

P.S.
Dylan don’t feel bad. I suck as a spark.

Why they came–
I completely agree with Ilana when it comes to “Why they came”, I don’t feel as if I learned anything new in particular. Even though I did find the chapter really interesting I had already learned about the potato famine in Ireland. I definitely feel horrified but also intrigued. I will say that I believe as if some of this was definitely exaggerated. I am also intrigued because it is stories like these that make me want to go back in time, not to live during these horrible times, but at least to be a witness to it because I feel that the only true understanding of these situations would be to see it happen. I love history because of how interesting it is and history can always make you question your thoughts about your conditions now. No matter how gruesome and awful the situation was I would have liked to see it because then I feel as if I would have really been able to understand it. I will say that I am extremely happy about the way Booth tried to help his laborers to the point where he essentially took out a loan to help pay for their food and get them out of Ireland, at least he did it because he cared to an extent.

How they lived–
How they lived is also really interesting. It would be really interesting to visit a tenement museum to get the visual sense of how it looks. What I don’t understand is how these horrible conditions could receive so much publicity and nothing would be done about it. Maybe due to racism against immigration but even so there had to be at least a few people in New York who had hearts and money who could help in some way. The landlords were completely ridiculous I think it was very fitting for the writer to call the people living in these tenements “inmates” because they were obviously there against their will. Ironically criminals today live better than lots of the people who inhabited these tenements in Five Points.